Parent & Child Genetics (w/ Special Guest!) - Part 1

Harvey and Pen are joined by Pen's dad as they talk about genetics, nature vs. nurture, and the strange things you can pass on to your children. Part 1 of 2.

[Timestamp note to skip direct discussion of classroom animal dissection—10:23-13:42]

Featuring: Join us in our studio; Father-child relationship? More like 'unintentional case study'; The most specific and strangest genetic link we've ever heard of; Genetics are really, really weird; Did you know ADHD has a genetic component?; Nature vs. Nurture is a real hard puzzle, especially when you don't have a twin for comparison


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Transcript

Pen: 0:12

Hello, and welcome to Beyond Introspection: A podcast about mental health, neurodivergence and how it impacts literally every aspect of our lives.

Harvey: 0:19

All of them.

Pen: 0:20

All of them. Very non-optionally. I'm Pen.

Harvey: 0:24

I'm Harvey. It's been a while since we've added on to the "all of them."

Pen: 0:28

Well, you know, sometimes you just think about things, and sometimes you've recently relistened to older episodes, and you just... you mimic yourself from the past.

Harvey: 0:36

We listen to our own podcast.

Pen: 0:38

Well, of course we do! It's good. So this time, we have a guest with us actually in the - I almost said studio.

Harvey: 0:48

Haha! We can - we can keep up the illusion, Pen. We don't have to...

Pen: 0:52

Oh, God, uh... we have - we have a guest, because I have family visiting.

luckydad: 1:00

Hello!

Pen: 1:01

Yeah.

Harvey: 1:02

That's the family. That's the family.

luckydad: 1:04

Hi, I'm family.

Pen: 1:05

Yeah, um, so this is my dad. Would you care to introduce yourself?

luckydad: 1:11

Hi, I'm luckydad.

Pen: 1:12

Yeah! Yeah. Is there anything that you want to, um... you know, the last people that we've had on here have been like, Demetrea, who's a counselor. And like Ari and Trevon, who do...

Harvey: 1:24

Are cool.

Pen: 1:25

Yes, they are. And do, like, specific things. But, um, you do not necessarily work in the mental health field, I would say.

luckydad: 1:33

Not at all.

Pen: 1:34

No.

luckydad: 1:34

No, but I do occasionally partake of it.

Pen: 1:37

Yes.

luckydad: 1:38

Weekly.

Pen: 1:39

Is there anything-

luckydad: 1:40

Just this morning.

Pen: -like re: 1:40

any diagnoses, or, like, things that you identify more strongly with, in terms of... of neurodivergence?

Harvey: 1:50

That you want to share.

Pen: 1:51

That you want to share, specifically?

luckydad: 1:54

Um, my current therapist is hesitant to over diagnose, and so has not presented any diagnoses, even when asked, which I find interesting, and...

Harvey: 2:05

Not unusual.

luckydad: 2:07

Yeah, it's... a previous therapist told me that I had PTSD, and that was a revelation for me. To find out that, you know, I - not only did I experience trauma, but it legitimately affected me. It's not just me whining.

Harvey: 2:24

Felt that.

Pen: 2:25

Yeah... feeling that.

luckydad: 2:28

It took me long enough to admit I had experienced trauma. And, yeah, so it was really comforting to find that PTSD diagnosis, and nothing else that therapist did for me helped, which is how things go sometimes.

Pen: 2:44

Yeah, yeah.

Harvey: 2:46

It's an unfortunately common experience.

Pen: 2:48

Yep! Therapy, roll of the dice.

luckydad: 2:52

Even if she listens to this podcast, she won't know it's me, it's fine, so I don't feel like I'm being mean to her when I say that.

Pen: 2:57

Oh, um, I've made - I'm named dropped before.

luckydad: 3:00

Right.

Harvey: 3:01

No, I have no qualms about bullying therapists if they suck.

luckydad: 3:05

I don't mean to imply that she sucks, that's what I was trying to get at.

Pen: 3:08

Yeah, yeah, things are...

luckydad: 3:09

It just didn't work.

Harvey: 3:10

No, you're not implying that, I am. No, absolutely. Absolutely. That's totally a thing where, sometimes, therapists and clients just aren't good matches.

Pen: 3:20

Just doesn't click.

luckydad: 3:21

I have been remote diagnosed with ADHD by my lovely kid, Pen.

Pen: 3:29

Yeah, I... not to constantly say that everyone in my life and everyone I think about has ADHD, but also...

Harvey: 3:35

I don't!

Pen: 3:36

You do not! You don't. I - I am very conscious and aware of, uh, ADHD symptoms because of myself, and because I look into things constantly. It's how I do. And...

luckydad: 3:48

It appears that I raised those flags.

Pen: 3:49

I strongly suspect that you have ADHD. I also suspect that my mom does, and I think that my little brother might as well, but I - I feel fairly confident. Like, I feel pretty solid about it.

luckydad: 4:06

Which I think fits nicely into the... the theme we're after here today, yes?

Harvey: 4:12

I was going to say ADHD has strong genetic links. You'll never guess what our episode is about today.

Pen: 4:18

It is, uh...

luckydad: 4:19

Sorry to steal your thunder there.

Pen: 4:22

We're going to discuss genetics a bit.

Harvey: 4:25

My dad is not here, but I'm also a genetic clone of him.

Pen: 4:30

Copy-paste.

Harvey: 4:31

We - no really we look the same.

Pen: 4:32

Yeah.

Harvey: 4:33

We talk the same.

Pen: 4:35

Your personalities are very different.

Harvey: 4:36

Our personalities are very different, and we do differ in diagnosis, but...

luckydad: 4:44

I think my brother got my dad, and I got my mom for the most part.

Pen: 4:48

Well, you know...

luckydad: 4:48

Which worked out better for you.

Pen: 4:50

Yeah. Yeah... anyway! So one - one relevant thing, one very relevant thing, for talking about genetics in this episode specifically with, uh, with me and with luckydad, is that you did not raise me.

luckydad: 5:11

That is correct.

Pen: 5:12

We had no contact at all until I was 10, thereabouts.

luckydad: 5:19

I think two weeks before your 10th birthday.

Pen: 5:21

Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. And then it was when I was, like, 10 and 11, you visited a few times, and Mom and I visited you once, and then there was a pause again.

luckydad: 5:33

Our last visit was for your 12th birthday.

Pen: 5:35

12th birthday. Okay, cool. Cool. I'm glad you remember that, because I don't.

luckydad: 5:38

You're nailing it!

Pen: 5:40

And then there was a... another pause no contact, and then, when I was 18, we reconnected. And I'm 23 now, for the sake of the podcast to... to know.

luckydad: 5:52

And they've been the best and most important five years of my life.

Pen: 5:55

Oh, that's really sweet.

luckydad: 5:57

It's not meant to choke me up, but I am now choked up.

Harvey: 6:03

It's okay. I've cried on the podcast first, so that ice has already been broken.

Pen: 6:08

Um, but yeah, so we've been very close then. But like that is, I think, very relevant in talking about inherited traits and diagnoses and things is, we have, I would say, a strong genetic link, in that I got half mine from ya.

Harvey: 6:25

Does seem relevant.

Pen: 6:26

But as far as like, you know, nature versus nurture, absolutely no contact until, like, age 10 through 12, and then even then, it was not constant.

luckydad: 6:38

It was mostly over the phone.

Pen: 6:39

Yeah.

luckydad: 6:40

Several visits, but I wasn't the - I wasn't the nurturer.

Pen: 6:44

Yeah. I would not say that...

luckydad: 6:46

I was not the one raising you.

Pen: 6:47

...your impact on, uh, on my development was particularly- God, that sounds kind of mean- to say that your impact on my development wasn't particularly, uh... impactful.

Harvey: 6:59

The nurture part of it.

Pen: 7:00

Yeah, yeah. Like, I didn't- you get things for your parents. I would not say that, as a parental figure...

luckydad: 7:08

You wouldn't have learned any habits from me.

Pen: 7:10

Yeah.

luckydad: 7:10

You wouldn't have learned behaviors from me.

Pen: 7:12

Not directly.

Harvey: 7:13

There was no observation, really. But no, you two are a fascinating case study in nature vs. nurture.

Pen: 7:20

We are.

luckydad: 7:20

Right. It's almost like a twin study.

Harvey: 7:21

I was actually thinking that.

Pen: 7:24

...because there are some, like-

luckydad: 7:25

Shoutout to the Kelly twins, some of my favorite astronauts.

Harvey: 7:29

So true.

Pen: 7:31

Yeah, so there - but there are still, like, very striking similarities with us.

luckydad: 7:37

Shocking, almost, sometimes.

Pen: 7:38

Yeah, it's... there are weird things.

Harvey: 7:39

What's the one, your laugh?

Pen: 7:41

Yes. That was... my mom pointed out at one point, like,"You laugh, just like your dad." And I was like, really?

luckydad: 7:47

Yeah. When your mom and I got back in touch, that was the first thing she mentioned. And it's... I have several laughs but it's specifically the one on the inhale.

Harvey: 7:58

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pen: 8:00

It's, um... and I remember when I visited you for the first time. you know, post, like, when I was 18, visiting for the first time, all of your friends that I met, were like, "Yeah, that's your kid. Yep. Yep, yep."

luckydad: 8:14

Immediately. Right.

Harvey: 8:17

Whereas I was raised by my dad, not exclusively, but I had sort of a... not to the extent that you did, Pen, but I did have a somewhat non-traditional family structure, where I was an only child, and also, my dad stayed at home with me for the first 10 years of my life while my mom went to work. So, little bit of the narrative flipped on its head, but because I spent pretty much every waking moment with my dad if I wasn't in school, um, that's probably a major part of why we are the exact same person in many respects, because I was around him in my most formative years, always.

Pen: 8:58

And it is... it is interesting to have comparisons to, like, oh, wow, you can get that without knowing someone at all, can't you? Huh. Genetics be like: weird.

Harvey: 9:08

Mm-hmm.

luckydad: 9:08

Yeah.

Harvey: 9:09

It's - it - and that's one of the things in psychology, just generally. There's, uh... especially with evolutionary psychology, there's a lot of folks really interested in which aspects of psychology are inherited, which aren't, where does that inheritance come from? And most of those, it's still a big old question mark.

Pen: 9:27

Yeah, it's a hard thing to be sure about, especially because it's... it's particularly difficult, you know, to arrange the kind of, uh, case study that... that we just happen to have.

luckydad: 9:40

I think most ethicists would frown upon arranging it intentionally.

Pen: 9:43

Yeah, probably wouldn't...

luckydad: 9:45

Yeah.

Harvey: 9:45

There's no way that would fly by any IRB.

Pen: 9:48

Yeah. But there are... I... to give an example, a more detailed example of the weird things that apparently can be genetic. My favorite story of that is one of - it was one of the times that I was visiting you, and I was talking about being in high school. God knows why. I talk a lot. Here we are. And I mentioned in my high school anatomy class, which was bad. The teacher didn't engage...

Harvey: 10:21

Oh, I remember this story.

Pen: 10:23

And so, I was talking about and I was like, yeah, so we did the fetal pig dissection. This is - for... for people, if you are not - if you are very squeamish about these kinds of things for the next like, couple of minutes. maybe skip ahead.

Harvey: 10:36

I'm just going to say in the description, we'll provide a timestamp for where you can skip to.

Pen: 10:40

Because this might be not ideal for you. But we were doing the fetal pig dissection, and we... my partner and I got through the, like, required parts pretty quickly, because again, she was a bad teacher, and so we had free time, and I was like, "What if I took the brain out?" And so I did, and it was... it was an interesting experience, but I got the whole thing out...

Harvey: 11:04

I don't know if you knew this, but impulsivity is a symptom of ADHD.

Pen: 11:10

I got the... I got the brain out. And I, uh, I cupped in my hands - with gloves, still- and I took it upstairs to my mom's classroom, and I was like,"Hey, Mom, guess what?" and she was like, "What?" and I'm like,"I have a thing." and she was like, "What is it?" and I showed her the brain. and she was like,"That's nice, kid" or something like that, which, I love my mom so much. But I told - I told you. luckydad, I told you this, and...

luckydad: 11:32

And I shared a story with you of when I was in high school biology class, and we were dissecting a fetal pig, and I finished early. I don't think because of a bad teacher, I think just because I was very excited about dissecting a fetal pig. And I feel like part of the motivation may have been she told us don't remove the organs and bring them to me and ask me if it's a liver or a kidney, because I can't tell without the context of it being in place. And I thought, is there an organ she could tell?

Pen: 12:04

Well, that's...

luckydad: 12:06

And so I caught off the top half of the pig's head and pulled out the brain. I ended up actually keeping it in a jar of formaldehyde and hanging it in the top of my locker.

Harvey: 12:16

Huh!

Pen: 12:16

Yeah, you were weirder about it than me. [Laughter]

luckydad: 12:20

Very much, my goal in high school was to be seen as the weirdest person there, and I succeeded.

Pen: 12:25

Yeah, I should say so. And this is... I remember when you - when you told me that, it was quickly followed by "And I know I didn't tell you that story."

luckydad: 12:36

And I never told your mother that story, either, so it's not like you heard it and somehow it had some sort of influence on you.

Pen: 12:42

Because it was related to, um, uh, you...

luckydad: 12:46

Yeah, um...

Pen: 12:47

Yeah, drug dogs that came to...

luckydad: 12:48

Part of trying to be the weirdest person and environment means sometimes people think you're on drugs. And I think there were probably a few people who just didn't like me, but somehow, someone said to a teacher - an authority figure...

Pen: 13:03

An adult.

luckydad: 13:05

You know, there's weed! He's got weed! And so, they called the police, and the sheriffs came in with drug dogs to sniff and everything, and they had me open up my locker, and they had to find a fetal pig brain, and no weed.

Harvey: 13:22

You know, I think it's - I think it's really funny...

luckydad: 13:25

...which was in my brother's car in the parking lot, by the way. [Laughter] It was my dad's weed, too.

Harvey: 13:35

This just keeps getting better and better. I was going to say...

luckydad: 13:38

I think was high when they searched me.

Harvey: 13:42

I was gonna say, I think it's really funny that high schools always default to weed as far as - we're probably gonna have to cut this out - I think it's really funny that high schools will default to weed as, like, the "This is the thing that makes people weird," when, like, frankly, whenever I use weed, I'm just glued to my couch for, like, three hours.

Pen: 14:00

No, we can talk about that. Marijuana is recreationally legal in the state of Illinois.

Harvey: 14:05

That's true. I guess we wouldn't have to cut out using alcohol. Yeah, whenever I use weed, like, I wouldn't... I'm not like silly, I'm just like... I just sit there.

Pen: 14:13

I know that there was, uh, that one time you were high.

Harvey: 14:17

Pretzels. I can tell the story.

Pen: 14:21

Please tell the story.

Harvey: 14:21

My boyfriend, Chris, who is stoney baloney, that man, he... he uses weed so much, and I love him for it. Um, he brought over some weed to my place, and I took a couple hits and I got... by a couple I mean five, because I kept thinking that I was not breathing deeply enough. I was. I was stoned out of my mind. And I got the munchies really bad, and so... and my roommate Emily is in the room when this happens. I stumble into my, uh, my kitchen, and I was looking for pretzels and hummus. I stare blankly at my cabinet, and Chris goes,"What do you need, honey? What are you looking for?" And I go, after a long pause,"Pretzels..." and then I waddle over to the cabinet, get my pretzels and then I go back to my room. I'm trying to think of how this ties into genetics. My dad also smoked a lot of weed when he was in high school in early adulthood. I don't know. Sure.

Pen: 15:26

Copy and paste.

Harvey: 15:27

Copy-paste.

Pen: 15:28

But regardless, that is why we can be absolutely certain that you did not tell me the fetal pig brain story, because it is very directly connected to a story - like, you would not have told me that at age 10.

luckydad: 15:39

Nooo.

Pen: 15:40

Especially because, you know, my mom was always around. Like, that was not...

luckydad: 15:44

And you were not someone who wanted to be told weird, scary - potentially scary stories by me.

Pen: 15:51

Now, if you told me about the pig brain, that would have been fine.

luckydad: 15:56

Sorry, I don't mean to say who you were, I mean to say what my impression of you was.

Pen: 16:00

Oh, that's - that's fair. That's fair. No, I- I mean...

luckydad: 16:02

...that guided my interaction with you.

Pen: 16:03

Mom had a skeleton in her classroom, and I made friends with it by shaking its hand. And I was like...

Harvey: 16:07

We told the story about that on the podcast.

Pen: 16:08

Yeah, yeah, the one on death. Uh, I was like, seven or eight, and that was - like, I'm- I would have been- would've been like, "Oh, cool.

luckydad: 16:14

I think if you took someone who was squeamish about dissection, and showed them a skeleton in a classroom, it would be a different response.

Pen: 16:25

It would, but I - that's, like, my example of, you know, I- this is not... I was not particularly affected by those things, because we are used to them.

luckydad: 16:32

Yeah.

Pen: 16:33

Like, Mom-

Harvey: 16:34

What if I told y'all that you have skeleton inside you right now?

Pen: 16:36

Oh, my God, where?!

luckydad: 16:40

My skeleton's made out of hate and anger. How's yours?

Harvey: 16:44

Mine's... I don't have anything funny for this. Go on, Pen.

Pen: 16:48

Mine glows in the dark. Uh...

Harvey: 16:50

Nice!

Pen: 16:52

Yeah, it's a cool one. It's like a glow stick. You just go like... [cracking] I was pretty sure I'd be able to crack my knuckles there, because I usually can.

Harvey: 17:00

That was pretty good.

luckydad: 17:01

It's just that now you've caused me to need to crack mine.

Pen: 17:04

And now they're glowing. Glowing bones.

Harvey: 17:05

Crunch break!

Pen: 17:07

Crunch break?!

Harvey: 17:08

I can say whatever I want on the podcast!

luckydad: 17:11

It's your podcast.

Harvey: 17:12

It's my pod- it's our podcast.

Pen: 17:14

Fingers made out of KitKats. Anyway. So that's a very... both of us taking the brains out of the fetal pigs in dissection- didn't- when we dissected them, for no, like, outside reason. No one told us to do that. We both internally decided... yeah.

luckydad: 17:32

I have a question for you.

Pen: 17:33

Yeah, what's up?

luckydad: 17:34

Have you ever met anyone who has removed a brain from a pig during dissection who wasn't me?

Pen: 17:41

No.

luckydad: 17:42

Nor have I.

Pen: 17:43

I mean, not that it's something that comes up.

Harvey: 17:45

I was gonna say, when I did frog dissection, I almost threw up and had to leave the room.

luckydad: 17:50

In the last five years, it's come up in my conversation a lot more just because of the exact topic we're having right now.

Pen: 17:55

Yeah, I mean, I've mentioned it to people, and I've never had, like - I've never had someone say...

luckydad: 17:59

Oh, me, too!

Pen: 18:00

I've never even had someone say "I thought about it." It's usually like "You did? Why did you do that?" And I'm like, I... you know, wanted to see if I could. And I had the time.

luckydad: 18:10

It's antithetical to how people view the world. No one would think to do that except for you and I, is my impression of things.

Pen: 18:17

Yeah, it's... it's a very, very particular thing to have in common with someone who didn't raise you at all, but you do share, um... share genetics with, which is, that's why it is my, um, go to example, for yeah, genetics are weird. Genetics are really, really weird.

Harvey: 18:35

And, you know, this - this is a interesting contrast

luckydad: 18:35

Really weird. to me and my dad, uh, in that my dad raised me for the majority of my childhood. And probably, the main way in which we differ is personality. We are copy-paste in pretty much every way except personality, which, in psychology. is a very stable, and relatively unchanging part of a person. And it is precisely because of that change in... of that difference in personality that I haven't had the same sorts of experiences like my dad. Like, my dad was kind of a player in high school, managed to get in relationships with a lot of people. I didn't have my first relationship until I was 18 I don't think.

Pen: 19:27

You could not be a player if you tried, and you would never, ever try. Harvey has so much love in their heart. Like, you like to be in relationships. I know that. You could never just, like, toss someone to the side. Like, you would cry, and cry.

Harvey: 19:44

I...

Pen: 19:45

I mean this in the most loving way possible.

Harvey: 19:46

I was gonna say, I cried after a month-long relationship ended. Anyway. My dad was also, like, a total troublemaker in high school. This is not Harvey. And it's - it's those- and that's where genetics can also be different. Because like, even with my dad having raised me, and for every reason we should be very similar people, we do differ a lot in our general temperament.

Pen: 20:10

Yeah, it's... that is... it's very interesting to - to consider and I... I find a very interesting, which is convenient for me......because I - I have a built-in case study. Yeah. And

Harvey: 20:21

Tee-hee. so, it's, you know, genetics and things can be hereditary that you would never... that a lot of people wouldn't consider at all. Because usually, it seems like a pretty straightforward thing. Like, there are a lot of things I have in common with my mom as well. My mom raised me, so that's a little bit less noticeable. Like, if I say, "Uh, yeah, I got this from my mom," people would be like, "Yeah." Yeah.

Pen: 20:47

"Yeah, you did."

luckydad: 20:48

It throws a lot of variables into the nature-nurture equation.

Pen: 20:53

Though, there are certain things that I - that I really do think were more genetic-related between me and Mom, but that's like... that's really hard to check about.

Harvey: 21:01

Well, and also because, you know, those genetic fundamentals of yourself, your temperament, your personality, also influence your behavior. So it's really very difficult to say that anything is purely nurture. Purely nature? Easier to identify, but...

Pen: 21:18

It is a complicated thing, and it is something that I... that I find very fascinating, in part because I... like sometimes my handwriting will slip into yours, and it messes with me every time I'll just look down and be like, what?

Harvey: 21:33

Whose is that?

Pen: 21:34

What - what - I don't - who- how?

Harvey: 21:37

Why?

luckydad: 21:38

And I... I have a couple of handwritings, but the one you're referring to is the one that I felt that I had learned from my dad.

Pen: 21:46

Oh...

luckydad: 21:47

But did I?

Pen: 21:49

Oh, well, that's stupid. I don't want to have anything in common with...

luckydad: 21:52

Eh, you can't help it.

Pen: 21:54

Well, I can be...

luckydad: 21:55

My dad is also your grandfather.

Pen: 21:56

Well, I can be better than him, though.

luckydad: 21:59

[Laughter] That doesn't even take effort.

Pen: 22:04

We got... uh, I got generational trauma from Mom's side more heavily, I think. in terms of, you know, as - as, uh- as raising and things come in with it, but like, generational trauma on all sides here. We got it.

Harvey: 22:18

I was gonna say, man, are we also going to get into the fact that both of us come from lineages of trauma?

Pen: 22:22

Uh...

luckydad: 22:24

Hey, me, too!

Pen: 22:29

But yeah, it's... so there's that. There's all of that. And I know I've, uh - I've talked about how ADHD has, um, genetic components, because it is a complex brain condition. Which, again, is very important to me to say those kinds of things about it. Uh, change the narrative around it. But it is... I looked up some research! I did research. Harvey's jaw dropped. On purpose.

Harvey: 22:58

Slash light hearted.

Pen: 23:02

Yeah, according to the National Health Service, in United Kingdom, ADHD tends to run in families, and parents and siblings of a child with ADHD are more likely to have it themselves. However, the way ADHD is inherited is likely to be complex and not related to, like, a single genetic thing. Though, again, as... as I always want to say, no one's actually totally sure what causes ADHD. They look at our brains and they're like, "Huh. Well... that's different. Wonder why?"

Harvey: 23:39

And even with things like depression, like, we may know, you know, which neurotransmitters are implicated in that, i.e., serotonin, but we don't really know why there's a deficiency in serotonin. And it's that why piece that ends up being...

Pen: 23:52

Yeah. The why is really...

Harvey: 23:54

...being the question in psychology a lot of the time.

Pen: ADDitude: 23:58

Available evidence suggests that ADHD is genetic. At least 1/3 of all fathers who had ADHD in their youth - which is a ridiculous thing to say, because it does take... but - who had ADHD in their youth have children with the condition. What's more, the majority of identical twins share ADHD.

Harvey: 24:22

Again, twin studies is more or less the gold standard for studies on genetics.

luckydad: 24:29

I have yet to be professionally diagnosed with ADHD, but it certainly sounds accurate to me. When I was in my youth, it wasn't an option for me to find out that I did, because it was considered a learning disability back then, and my family would not have accepted that I was learning disabled, so...

Pen: 24:49

You also-

luckydad: 24:50

...just, the option wasn't there.

Pen: 24:51

I mean, you were a smart kid. You were...

luckydad: 24:53

I was academically gifted, so I couldn't be learning disabled.

Pen: 24:57

Yeah, that's- I mean, that's...

luckydad: 24:58

Thank goodness that terminology has changed some.

Pen: 25:02

But that is certainly - that's a thing, and ADHD is still lumped in sometimes as - as a learning disability, which- which is wholly inaccurate, and like, even...

luckydad: 25:13

It's humiliating for children to be told that Sorry to interrupt.

Pen: 25:16

No, no.

Harvey: 25:17

For as long as disability remains a dirty word.

Pen: 25:19

Yeah.

Harvey: 25:21

Because I would say I have a learning disability. I'm not ashamed to say that, um, but I am worried about how that is perceived. But yes, you're right that ADHD is just decidedly not a learning disability.

Pen: 25:32

Yeah, it's, um... and that's just- that's how it... you know, how it goes. And that's also why a lot of diagnoses don't go through, because I was never going to be considered for it, because school can very easily to me.

Harvey: 25:45

And we did another episode about this.

Pen: 25:47

Yes, we did! Gifted Kid Syndrome. Chadd.org - it's"Chadd" two Ds. It's Children and Adults with ADHD, which - that acronym doesn't fit perfectly. So - that - but that's okay.

luckydad: 26:01

It's not Chadhd.org?

Pen: 26:02

Nope.

luckydad: 26:04

I wish.

Pen: 26:04

I kind of wish.

Harvey: 26:05

Right? That'd be good.

Pen: 26:05

While the exact causes of ADHD have not been identified, genetic studies show that there is a strong hereditary component, up to 91% likelihood of passing it on to your children.

Harvey: 26:16

Which is substantial when talking about psychology. That's huge.

Pen: 26:21

91%. That's a lot.

luckydad: 26:24

You're welcome.

Pen: 26:25

Yeah! Thanks! And I strongly suspect I got it from both sides. I know that this is not usually how it goes, is, well, you're-the kid definitely has it. So what about the parents? But also, like...

luckydad: 26:37

Sounds like a useful question to ask, though.

Pen: 26:39

It- yeah. And I know that there is a history of it, or at least it exists on Mom's side, because, um, her - her brother, Galen, had - had ADHD. I say had because, um, I don't know that it is necessarily functionally a worthwhile diagnosis for him at the moment. He had a really, really, really bad stroke years ago, when I was, like, nine. That...

luckydad: 27:05

Kind of where we met.

Pen: 27:07

Yeah. Yeah, um, in - in a series of events related to that. But part of his brain had to be removed. He is - he is no longer remotely the same person, in a lot of ways.

Harvey: 27:20

And that's how neurodivergence can change.

Pen: 27:22

Yeah.

Harvey: 27:23

If there are literal, physical changes to your brain.

Pen: 27:25

Yeah, like, stroke, brain partially removed. He's blind now, he has memory issues. You know, a lot of things that you might imagine would happen after you have a stroke, and a third of your brain is taken out.

Harvey: 27:36

Yeah, I was gonna say, must have been, like...

Pen: 27:38

Yeah.

Harvey: 27:38

...kind of that side - like kind of the side-back chunk.

Pen: 27:41

Yep. So, you know, that is, I would say, one of those cases where, uh, maybe you don't have a functional ADHD diagnosis later in life. But it also means I can't really compare my experiences to him very easily. But if nothing else, he was diagnosed with it, and everything I've heard about him, I have no reason to doubt that diagnosis, so it at least exists.

Harvey: 28:05

As far as-

Pen: 28:05

On that side.

Harvey: 28:06

-as far as... oh, sorry, were you gonna...

Pen: 28:08

No, no, yeah.

Harvey: 28:08

I was gonna say, as far as my tentative autism. Again, I'd be really shocked if I didn't - if I wasn't autistic, but - because I decided...

Pen: 28:16

If only you could get, uh, diagnosed without having that be something that impacted your life.

Harvey: 28:21

Yeah, I just want to be able to, like, get married, and have a job, and maybe adopt kids someday, which is why I'm avoiding the diagnosis, but anyway...

Pen: 28:30

I have teeth! They can be used to bite!

Harvey: 28:34

Yeah!

Pen: 28:34

That's a fun fact I'm gonna put out there. That's a really funny...

luckydad: 28:37

Bite bite violence?

Pen: 28:37

Bite bite violence.

Harvey: 28:38

Bite bite violence. No, um, there isn't a very obvious, um, link, as far as autism in my family, but also, yes, like, autism seems to have a genetic link, but it seems to be a little less staunch, if I'm remembering correctly. And then also, like, some of my cousins display some symptoms. My dad, some symptoms there. Maybe subclinical, maybe not. I don't know, I can't diagnose. I'm not trained to do that. I mean that in a...

Pen: 29:11

No, no, no, yeah, no, I know. It's a little bit funny in the ways that we approach things being very different.

Harvey: 29:18

Definitely wasn't meant to be a sleight. It's just, like, me being knee deep in psychology and counseling and like, I am not remotely qualified to say that. But in any case, yeah, I mean, like, in some ways, a lot of my mental health and the way that it presents is a little bit of a fluke. The things that aren't, um, depression and anxiety runs in my family, it's just that mine is super severe.

Pen: 29:41

Yeah...

Harvey: 29:43

And that's the thing. Like, my - my mom has pretty significant anxiety. It's probably more in the moderate end. My dad has some moderate-to-severe anxiety, but that's very directly related to PTSD. I have very severe generalized anxiety. I've been told on several occasions that my Generalized Anxiety is some of the worst clinicians have seen. That severity...

Pen: 30:04

That's not a fun thing to win at.

Harvey: 30:06

No. It's helpful for me to know, because I go, "Okay, my Generalized Anxiety is genuinely really bad." But the... the significance of it is something that ramped up with - with me individually. And because I don't have siblings, I have no biological siblings, I have no way of knowing if that would have run true for someone who was genetically similar to me.

Pen: 30:28

Yeah, yeah, I have... I've definitely had that thought sometimes of... it would have had to be a twin for me, because... no way. No way. No way.

luckydad: 30:40

We would not have accomplished a second.

Pen: 30:42

No.

Harvey: 30:43

Beyond Introspection is an independently-run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at ByndPodcast, or you can email us at beyonddot - that's D-O-T - podcast@gmail.com. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description. Got feedback for us? Feel free to reach out on social media, or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.