Beyond Introspection: A Podcast About Neurodivergence & Identity

Intersectionality: Identity Overview

• BeyondPodcast • Season 3 • Episode 1

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Harvey & Pen are back for Season 3! This time, the focus is on intersectionality. To set the stage, here's an overview of the identities Harvey & Pen hold and how they affect each other (broadly speaking).

Featuring: Wow, it's been a long time since we recorded; Who Are You? (the Third); A brief overview of what "intersectionality" means; Whoa, do you have enough hands to hold all those identities? (Spoilers: No); Believe it or not, our mental health and neurodivergence really do impact every area of our lives; Tell us if there's anything in particular you'd like us to talk about!


Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People: 

https://translifeline.org/


USA Suicide Prevention: 

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/


International Suicide Hotlines: 

https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines


Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People: 

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/


Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:

https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte

Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:

https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/

https://stopaapihate.org/


Resources for US Immigrants:

https://www.informedimmigrant.com/


Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:

https://immigrationjustice.us/

Pen:

Hello, and welcome to Beyond Introspection: A podcast about mental health, neurodivergence, and how it impacts literally every aspect of our lives.

Harvey:

All of them.

Pen:

Including recording on time. I'm Pen.

Harvey:

I'm Harvey.

Pen:

And we haven't recorded for two months.

Harvey:

That's a lot of months, in case you didn't know this.

Pen:

Oh, man, one month is a lot of months.

Harvey:

Now, the excuse that we gave ourselves. and I mean, this is hardly an excuse, because it's true, is that we are between seasons.

Pen:

We are - we are. Well, we're not anymore.

Harvey:

We were.

Pen:

We did seasons, then this is season three.

Harvey:

Yup.

Pen:

We had - we hope everyone enjoyed... yeah, that was August 8th that we recorded.

Harvey:

It's okay. It's okay.

Pen:

I know. It's just... it might have been before that. Anyway, that's not important. The important thing isn't the past, it's the future, and present. Like - like - like now when we're...

Harvey:

I would say that the present tends to be more important.

Pen:

The present does tend to be more important. So anyway, we're gonna be doing season three more on intersectionality. Yeah, uh-huh. And that will include us talking about our identities today.

Harvey:

But, before we get started...

Pen:

Oh, God, I forgot. I was thinking about it beforehand, and I already forgot.

Harvey:

[Gasp] How could you?!

Pen:

I have ADHD.

Harvey:

Okay, that's fair. Um, Pen.

Pen:

Harvey!

Harvey:

Tell me...

Pen:

Yes.

Harvey:

About your Wahoo! Moment of the Week.

Pen:

I forgot you did that! How exciting!

Harvey:

You - I would sometimes just try to say "wahoo," and then you would be like, "Can you do it in the fun voice?" and I'm like, "Do I have a choice?"

Pen:

You have a choice, it's just...

Harvey:

Do I?

Pen:

Yeah, you have a choice.

Harvey:

I'm teasing.

Pen:

But if you say it in the fun voice, I will go, "Yeah!" So if you want to hear that...

Harvey:

Fair enough.

Pen:

Um, but, yeah, my wahoo moment of the week, you know what? Let's go with I called my dad for the first time in a grip. We had a nice conversation. It was nice to talk to - talk to Luckydad again.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

And my dad does listen to this podcast sometimes. My dad probably has ADHD, so listening to podcasts can be a challenge.

Harvey:

Is ADHD inherited?

Pen:

Yeah, yeah, and it can have genetic...

Harvey:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Pen:

Yeah, it can have genetic...

Harvey:

As a treat.

Pen:

As a treat. As a - as a trait.

Harvey:

Nice.

Pen:

Thank you. It's funny.

Harvey:

Uh-huh.

Pen:

Like me. But yeah, so - so whenever you are listening to this, Pen's dad, hi!

Harvey:

Hi!

Pen:

Hello!

Harvey:

That's all.

Pen:

If you're in the woodshop, make sure not to breathe in sawdust. Seems like it'd be bad.

Harvey:

You know, I'm just not going to ask any questions.

Pen:

[Babbling] make wood... stuff! Harvey, what's your Wahoo! Moment of the Week?!

Harvey:

Um, well, this is kind of a - it's kind of a variation on a theme. You'll recall that, a lot of the time, my wahoo moment was "I saw my partner." So, I did see one of my partners on Friday, but this was extra exciting, because I was helping him move. And now he's living somewhere else that I think is going to be much better for him, and I think that just having been a part of that, and having been able to help him, was really great. So. yeah, I think- I think that's my Wahoo! Moment of the Week.

Pen:

That is very excellent. I'm very glad that you were able to do that.

Harvey:

Mhm. Me too.

Pen:

So, now that we've done the podcast segment I forgot about.

Harvey:

SMH my head.

Pen:

Oh, geez. This is...

Harvey:

How could you?

Pen:

How... you! You did! You did it!

Harvey:

How could you forget, is what I meant.

Pen:

Oh, right, you said that. God, Harvey I'm so sorry. I don't have any brain cells.

Harvey:

No, it's fine. I don't care.

Pen:

I forgot them at the Kwik Trip.

Harvey:

I forgor.

Pen:

I forgor. But yeah, we're going to talk about our identities.

Harvey:

Everything I say dates this podcast by years.

Pen:

Well...

Harvey:

I say for - I say I forgor, and it's just going to be immediately identifiable as 2021.

Pen:

Well, you know what? I don't know any modern memes, and people such as my mom and my dad listen to this, and they won't

Harvey:

They won't know what"forgor" meant. I mean, they know. will...

Pen:

I mean, they'll probably pick up on "forgot," but they won't understand that it's a reference to anything, just like I didn't. I mean, I figured it probably was, but...

Harvey:

I forgor...

Pen:

So the good news is, and we know at least one of our listeners, who isn't my parents, is also in their 40s, so, like, probably, we're fine.

Harvey:

Yeah, it's okay.

Pen:

Now, Trevon listens to this. He might know.

Harvey:

He might. But yeah, we should probably do the episode, huh?

Pen:

We should probably do the episode. Harvey.

Harvey:

Pen.

Pen:

Tell me about you. Who are you?

Harvey:

We've been here before!

Pen:

This is familiar territory!

Harvey:

My name's Harvey. We've never met before.

Pen:

We have not discussed. We refuse to even to look at each other.

Harvey:

Who are you?

Pen:

Who? I asked you first.

Harvey:

I asked you second.

Pen:

Okay.

Harvey:

No, no. Okay. Um...

Pen:

Tell me.

Harvey:

Oh, Pen is pointing a little hand gun at me. I mean, as in...

Pen:

Finger gun! Fingers!

Harvey:

Fingers! Fingers! Fingers! fingers!

Pen:

I don't own a gun.

Harvey:

No. Oh, my God.

Pen:

This is important informa ion

Harvey:

Oh, Lord God in heaven. Okay. Um, yeah, I hold identities.

Pen:

Oh, do you have enough hands for them?

Harvey:

Uh, not really.

Pen:

No, actually, I know the answer.

Harvey:

I really don't. I'm... oh. So, there's a lot of things. You know, I feel like we should probably set up the framework for this episode, and the entire season, is that we're basing this on intersectionality.

Pen:

Yes.

Harvey:

Do you care to explain what intersectionality is? Or shall I do it?

Pen:

I can do, like, a brief thing, and then you can talk about the history.

Harvey:

Sure, sure.

Pen:

Yeah, intersectionality is, you know, it's... people holds multiple identities. That's just facts, like your racial identity, your gender identity, your sexuality, all of these things are different aspects of you. Your neurodivergence and such. Your physical ability, socio - socioeconomic status. There are a lot of aspects of a people, and each one of these identities intersects with the others in a way that makes them different than they would be on their own. Such that, I mean, the - the term was coined, and Harvey can say a little bit more about, like, the full background, but being a Black woman is fundamentally different than being a White woman.

Harvey:

And the sexism that a Black woman experiences is different than the sexism that a White woman experiences.

Pen:

Yes. These intersections and identities can cause them to compound. They can also make life easier. If you're white, you're... you benefit from it, no matter what.

Harvey:

Yeah, and a little bit more on the history of the term. So for anybody who studies Gender, or Women's Studies, or Women's, Gender, and Sexuality Studies, whatever permutation of that field you look into, if you look into it at all. So, intersectionality was a term coined by Kimberl Crenshaw, who, oh, man, I don't remember what she was studying when she was in college, which I believe is when the current - the[stammering] the term was coined. But it was - it was actually from a legal case. I'm not sure if it was something that she experienced, or something she heard about, but in any case, there was a situation in which there was employment discrimination, wherein Black people at this company were being hired - Black men at this company were being hired, and White women at this company were being hired, but not Black women. So, she tried to take it to court and she said, "Look, I'm being discriminated against, based on the fact that I am a Black woman," and based on anti-discrimination laws at the time, the law basically told her, "Well, you can either be discriminated against for being Black or for being a woman, and both of these demographics are hired, therefore, you are not being discriminated against." Now, anyone with a brain can look at that and realize that that's just bull hockey.

Pen:

That is inaccurate.

Harvey:

It's just false. It's just not true. But I believe, in writing a paper about that, that is when she coined the term intersectionality to describe that specific sort of interaction of her identities and how that impacted her life. And there's a lot of different ways to conceptualize it. There's... like, literally, you can think about it as an intersection in a road. There's about a million other different ways you can think about it. But basically, the thing to know is that all of your identities interact with one another. They influence the way that you are treated based on one of them, so on and so forth. It's kind of that general concept. And that's going to be the framework for today, and basically for the rest of the season. We're going to be talking about especially how mental health intersects with other identities, and how those - and the ways that those intersections may impact mental health. It's a bidirectional thing.

Pen:

Absolutely. And this is something that we have dipped our toes into with the episode on Blackness and ental health.

Harvey:

Which, oh man, that was a great episode.

Pen:

We have such cool people to talk to.

Harvey:

Don't we?

Pen:

We did briefly touch on intersectionality, well, as a defined term. The whole episode was about intersectionality.

Harvey:

Right.

Pen:

A thing that I like to - to add when - when intersectional like comes up as like, a defined term, is the first time that I learned about intersectionality was in a very different... well, not - it was in a different context than when I learned about it in an academic setting. Which was, um... the first time I heard of it, it was in people saying like, "Yeah, even if you are gay, you can still be racist. If you are a White gay person, you still have the capability to be racist. Just because you're marginalized in one part of your identity doesn't mean you can't contribute to problems for other marginalized people."

Harvey:

If your gay and you've ever been on Grindr, you know this.

Pen:

Yeah. And - which is a very important thing to talk about, for sure, and it was interesting for me to learn that that wasn't actually, like... because I hadn't heard of it in a different context before, like, specifically. I was like, oh, shoot!

Harvey:

Oh, this is real.

Pen:

Well, gosh-dang.

Harvey:

Wow.

Pen:

Would you look at that, folks?

Harvey:

Well, well, well - okay. I'm not going to reference that whole thing in a podcast. Anyway. So yeah, I think - I think the crux of this is, 1) identities influence each other, and 2) privilege and oppression are not... it's not a math equation. Nothing gets can - nothing gets canceled out. Yeah, the thing...

Pen:

Yeah, that's a - that's a good way to put it. You can't reduce fractions here.

Harvey:

Like I am - I am trans, and that doesn't mean that I am marginalized to, like, a pretty far extent.

Pen:

Yup.

Harvey:

But, that doesn't negate my White privilege.

Pen:

Not even a little bit.

Harvey:

And it is important to note that, like, we are talking about this in the context of the United States.

Pen:

Yes, absolutely. That's also a very important thing.

Harvey:

In other countries, this might be different, or... I'm not even gonna say might. It is different.

Pen:

Everything is different. Like, the racism that exists in just different parts of Europe is fundamentally different.

Harvey:

All of this is highly, highly relative.

Pen:

Exactly. Yes. So and if I'm- and, right, we do actually have listeners from other continents, which is...

Harvey:

Isn't that crazy?

Pen:

Yes. But yeah, we are both from the US. We are currently in the US.

Harvey:

We are.

Pen:

In my apartment. In US, in apartment, in front of microphone.

Harvey:

Yes. Good job.

Pen:

Thank you!

Harvey:

So, that being said, you know, some stuff on my identities. There's a couple of things that I hold. I'm White. I'm, uh, you know, specifically of European descent, so a very typical sort of white. I'm... like, I am ethnically Jewish, although I was not raised in that faith, so I don't - like I don't necessarily experience the oppression that Jewish folks face in the same way, however, there are ways in which antisemitism affects me, if nothing else, because I know I'm Jewish, and I hear people say that, and I'm like, "Hm. You are rude, question mark? Exclamation point." But primarily, as far as my racial-ethnic identity, I'm a White American. I'm trans, specifically nonbinary. A lot of the time, I feel like people assume that I have male privilege. I don't because I'm not a man. There is something to be said for I likely do, in certain circumstances, I likely benefit from the fact that I can pass as a cis man. However, it's not always a privilege because sometimes that means I - my whole identity is erased.

Pen:

Like it's complex enough when you're just talking about binary trans men experiencing a level of male privilege, because it's like, this is inherently different. But, when a trans person is passing as a cis - er, a non binary person is passing as cis, it's like, yeah, also being misgendered. Like, it also sucks.

Harvey:

Yeah, like, privilege, but only to a degree.

Pen:

Privilege hand-in-hand with harm.

Harvey:

Yeah, those are no separate from... or, those are not, like, mutually exclusive.

Pen:

They intersect.

Harvey:

They do! That's crazy! I need to stop saying that. In any case...

Pen:

Do you not use genderfluid anymore?

Harvey:

No, I do identify as genderfluid, it's just that non- it's - it's a nonbinary identity in that... so you know, genderfluid, briefly, is exactly what it sounds like. The gender that I identify with is fluid. Just the general sense of it is fluid. And typically, I go between an androgynous gender identity and a masculine gender identity. Occasionally, I identify as a man, but that is extremely rare. Most of the time, it's either an androgynous gender identity or what I refer to as "masculine-of-center." So, that's my gender, there's also the thing of, like, I identify as gay. Sometimes I use the word queer instead. But I'm pretty much exclusively attracted to men and masculine-aligned people. I'm trying to think... I'm physically disabled. And then there is also the piece of, like, I identify as having somewhat of a, like, mental/cognitive disability, in that I'm - I'm probably autistic, and I think there are some ways in which my depression debilitates me in a way that is similar to having a disability. So I consider that, frankly, an element of disability.

Pen:

It shows up on those self disclosure forms. I filled pit a lot of employment applications. Depression is sometimes listed.

Harvey:

I just never list anything there because I don't want to deal with employment discrimination.

Pen:

Yeah, I typically put"Choose not to disclose," though, sometimes I have put,"Yes." I changed the ones for my current job to put "Yes."

Harvey:

Fair.

Pen:

Yeah. But like, yeah, being disabled and trying to find a job in society...

Harvey:

So there's a lot of, you know, it goes without saying, there's a there's a lot of intersecting identities I hold here. And of course, the fact that I'm White is really prevalent in all of these. You know, in spaces, where these identities are centric, my Whiteness comes through loud and clear. It allots me a great deal of privilege in those contexts. You know, I'm trying to think of... I briefly had a train of thought, and I lost it. You know, I immediately thought of the main way that my mental health, and frankly, my physical health, too, intersects with my transness, and it's something that I think my dad calls Trans Broken Arm Syndrome.

Pen:

Oh, yeah, you've talked about this.

Harvey:

So Trans Broken Arm Syndrome, for anyone who's never heard that term before, which is probably most of you, Trans Broken Arm Syndrome is this is this concept that medical professionals, be they mental health professionals or medical doctors, will treat a trans patient, and assume that their - that most or all of their issues are related directly to their transition. I remember, when I was 17, I went to the hospital once because I thought I was having a heart attack. I was not. It was a combination of GERD - I was diagnosed with GERD at that point - and a panic attack, which sure did mimic the symptoms of a heart attack.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

Those two things together, not fun. 0 out of 10, would not recommend.

Pen:

Don't. Mm-mm.

Harvey:

I would give it negative one stars, if I could, on Yelp.

Pen:

If anyone ever offers for you to experience panic attack, just say no. It sucks.

Harvey:

Yeah, I - legally, this is a joke: do drugs before you have a panic attack. Anyway...

Pen:

I mean, weed is legal some places.

Harvey:

That's true. And weed has relatively few consequences. So, that being said...

Pen:

Sorry, I was just remembering the time you called me from the parking lot.

Harvey:

It's fine. So - so that's something that I've dealt with a lot in the medical system, as most trans people have, I would say. And the thing is, a lot of that has come up in

Pen:

And this is something we talked about a bit with Demetrea my mental health and I don't know if you've experienced this in - in your therapeuti experiences, Pen, but I fin Oftentimes, I get stuck with therapists because there's - that a lot of the time m therapists, or counselors, o especially if they're cis, like, they are so fixated on the fact you know, whatever term i appropriate in that moment, the that I'm trans. And it's like, no, the transition is actually tend to assume that, like, a lo of my distress is related to m transition. And that's - that' always been, like, one of th going fine. Can we talk about how I want to kill myself most main ways that my identitie intersect with my mental health weeks, and how that has nothing to do with my gender. Actually, the fact that I was able to transition is a major part of why I haven't killed myself yet. So, there's that, that I just get stuck. But then there's also the piece of, like, I think, especially in queer communities, I have scarcely met queer and trans people who are not mentally ill. and the DSM, like, the idea of queerness being a mental illness is nothing. And also, it's really common for marginalized people in general, but, like, for queer people to have a mental illness or a neurodivergence in some respect. We stressed, y'all.

Harvey:

If you're not - you know, I'm not going to get into this because it's super complex, but look up sometime "minority stress model." It's super relevant for this. So there's that. And that's - that's been the main way my mental health intersects with my - with my identities. But there is, of course, yeah, to your point, the, um- er, I guess I was the one who brought that up, most of the people I know, including all of my partners, have some kind of mental illness or neurodivergence. And I'll tell you what, that has made my relationships, like, really complicated. You know, there is actually - there's - you know, there's a lot of kinship, er, first off, in - in having the people who are close to you also be mentally ill or divergent, but that makes it hard. You know, we're not in a romantic relationship. Just, again, disclaimer. We're not in a romantic relationship, but, like, the fact that we were both neurodivergent has come up for us, like, a lot of time. Like, almost every time we have some kind of conflict, there is a misunderstanding, because of the ways that we communicate due to neurodivergence.

Pen:

Yep.

Harvey:

In particular, I think one of the ways it's come up is that I'm very... is that I need communication to just be so direct. And I think that throws you a little bit.

Pen:

Sometimes, yeah, um, most significantly because of my trauma. But some of the ways that I communicate more implicitly that do have to do with my ADHD sometimes just don't meld, and then there are other ways that you being autistic and me having ADHD just make communication a lot easier.

Harvey:

Sometimes.

Pen:

It is a very multifaceted thing.

Harvey:

Yeah, sometimes the fact that we're both neurodivergent makes it easier. Other times, it makes it very frustrating and difficult.

Pen:

Yeah, just fundamentally different.

Harvey:

And that's... you know, that's - that's one of the things. I think it can be easy to conceptualize mental illness and neurodivergence as this thing - neurodivergence less so

Pen:

Oh, absolutely.- but I think it's easy to conceptualize mental illness as affecting you, rather than being a part of you. And it's... and in some cases, that is true, but I'm cautious to say that, because, like, in a very rea way, when you start to conside

Harvey:

...from who I am. And so I feel like mental illness - I intersectionality, like, m mental illnesses are a real p rt of me. They - they c ange everything about the way t at I approach the world. They a e so just fundamental in the way that I function that I honestly feel like they're ki d of inextricable from... think it is also useful to - to conceptualize mental illness, not - not just neurodivergence, but mental illness as a - as a facet of intersectionality, in my opinion.

Pen:

Oh, absolutely, I think it's hugely significant. Because it does intersect with every other part of your life. Like, that's - that's our intro, mental health, neurodivergence, and how it impacts literally every aspect of your life.

Harvey:

All of them. And it's true. That's not - that's not an exaggeration.

Pen:

I can talk a bit about my... because I haven't.

Harvey:

I was going to say, please do, because my brain is kaput.

Pen:

So, I... hi, I'm Pen.

Harvey:

Hi, Pen!

Pen:

I am - I'm also White, we've talked about this. I am... it's also a European kind of White, mot that I have any cultural identity tied to it, because my family line has been in the US for far, far longer than would allow for any real connection with it, especially because it's, you know, intermingled, uh, Europeanness that goes into me, Pen.

Harvey:

Wow.

Pen:

Yeah, you know that - that White people thing where it's like, "I'm this percent British, and this percent Irish," and it's like, yeah, none of it means anything.

Harvey:

I am so profoundly disconnected from my heritage!

Pen:

Yep. Cultural identity of White people in America is essentially nil when it comes to ethnicity, and that, with the... with certain exceptions, including, you know, being Jewish.

Harvey:

Now, we don't have time to unpack all of that.

Pen:

No, we've been recording for longer than would allow. But yeah, so that's that. I grew up in a very small town. And honestly, I think that that is a... that is - that is a very real facet of my identity that does intersect with things.

Harvey:

Yeah. I forgot to mention I grew up in the suburbs, which is why I never think about it.

Pen:

Yeah, I was on the phone conversation with my dad, just going off about it again, because you know I do that at the drop of a hat.

Harvey:

Oh, yeah.

Pen:

And I'm right.

Harvey:

Uh-huh. No, yeah.

Pen:

But yeah, I am nonbinary, like Harv. I'm bisexual, and I could go off about internalized biphobia, and also the implicit biphobia in every aspect of society, including queer circles, but I won't/

Harvey:

Uh-huh.

Pen:

And you know, it's a little bit funny to be talking about queerness intentionally on an episode; not just, like, mentioning it, but to be focusing on it, because one of the original, like, conceptions for this podcast was, "Hey, basically, all of our, like, activism work and stuff is about our queerness. I'm kind of sick of everything about me being about how I'm queer. Wanna talk about mental health with me?"

Harvey:

And I was gonna say, I don't think I share the same sentiment, but I totally get that.

Pen:

Yeah, it's... and I've - I've been more separated out from doing specifically advocacy work for a while now.

Harvey:

And meanwhile, I am real deep in queer activist work, so who knows? Maybe I'll get tired of it soon.

Pen:

Yeah, it was... I just spent so, so much time, and, you know, a lot of those opportunities went away when I was no longer in school, which, in some ways, was a good thing because, oh, I was so drained. I was so tired. But, so, you know, I've... it's been, like, intentional, that we haven't focused a ton on - on queerness in this podcast, because, you know, that's not all of it.

Harvey:

Then Harvey said,"Intersections?"

Pen:

Which, like, it is relevant. And, like, our queerness has come up because every part of your identity impacts every area of your life. That's just how people work.

Harvey:

Right.

Pen:

So, nonbinary, bisexual. We've talked about this part even less, though, it's been sometimes implied, and I'm sure plenty of people can figure it out from my voice, I'm AFAB, assigned female at birth.

Harvey:

Oh, right, me too. By virtue of the fact that I'm trans.

Pen:

And that impacts things really significantly. If you call me a woman, you're wrong, if you call me she, you're wrong. I'm so, so tired. But, like, that is relevant. Um, ADHD, social anxiety, chronic pain. I experience chronic pain.

Harvey:

Ouchie.

Pen:

Yeah, it hurts.

Harvey:

I just cracked my back.

Pen:

It hurts all the time. I wish I could crack my back! It's so bad!

Harvey:

I tried to crack Pen's back once, and it was not a good time for them.

Pen:

It was just painful.

Harvey:

I'm so sorry. Sarvey, if you will.

Pen:

I will. I do. Sarvey is funny. The chronic pain that I experience is primarily tied to upper back issues that go down into my shoulders, and then to my elbows, and then to my wrists. I first discovered the chronic pain because my wrist pain was so bad that I couldn't do anything, because I don't know if you've thought about this, folks: you use your hands for a lot. And I legitimately just, I mean, I couldn't type without being in agonizing pain. Which, luckily, is not the case anymore - though, sometimes they do act up - and I've had to change massive parts of my life around that pain. And I also experience rib pain because I had a cough - one time- that I am 98% certain broke at least one rib, and it... I can't wear even tank tops these days. It's - it's bad. And that is all relevant because it also impacts, like, my coping skills.

Harvey:

Yes!

Pen:

Like, I can't... I stopped being able to write when my wrist pain was at its peak, and that was one of the things I was most passionate about. Like, I knew I would rather lose the ability to speak than lose my hands, and through no choice of my own, I had lost my hands.

Harvey:

Yeah, and that sounds, I mean, traumatic.

Pen:

It was horrible.

Harvey:

And similarly, for me, walks used to be my main coping skill if I was not feeling well. Taking walks is really difficult for me with my chronic pain.

Pen:

Dishes used to be one way that I would cope with things, because it was like, "Okay, I can do dishes, I can listen to something while I do it, and then I've been productive." And that's great, that's awesome self care. My back hurts so much when I stand and do dishes.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

It's like, okay, cool, so... this is complex. Disability, folks.

Harvey:

And I'll tell you what, I don't... like, I... there's nothing wrong with being physically disabled, of course. But it does, at least for me, it has massively impacted my mental health.

Pen:

Oh, yeah. I mean...

Harvey:

Because I used to be able bodied.

Pen:

Yeah, it's it's one of those things, you know? Where it's like... and we've talked about disability and how it is a social thing. It is society. And there are ways in which it's not society, always.

Harvey:

The fact is, my body hurts.

Pen:

Yeah, like my body hurts, and my body hurts. The fact that society is not set up to be able to deal with my body being in pain all the time is absolutely, like, societal ableism. But my wrist's gonna hurt, folks.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

Yeah, so that's... I have not experienced the Trans Broken Arm Syndrome thing.

Harvey:

Thank God.

Pen:

Because I'm... well...

Harvey:

Well...

Pen:

It's because I am rarely ever gendered correctly. It is because I do not look trans enough. And because I'm nonbinary, and not masc at all, people just think I'm a woman, even when I try to call ahead and have it put in my chart or something that I'm nonbinary, I am still treated as a woman. So no, I don't have trans broken arm syndrome.

Harvey:

Misgendering, though.

Pen:

Constantly.

Harvey:

Who'd've thunk it? This is complex.

Pen:

Yeah, it is. Sometimes my therapist... usually, it's me bringing up trans stuff, and then they just do it wrong. And like, I've had a therapist explain, like, being

Harvey:

Oh, my God, yeah. nonbinary stress at me, which was like, "Hey, I appreciate the sort of sentiment behind it. You're wrong, and I didn't ask you to do this." Didn't they say gender journey?

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

And then we went to the grocery store, and we said that's the gender journey.

Pen:

This is our gender journey at the Hy-Vee. But, yeah, or they'll tell me, like, "Well, I'm sure that people who misgender you literally f'ing every day, it's not, you know, it's not malicious or anything," and I'm like, that's not the problem.

Harvey:

The problem is that it hurts.

Pen:

Yeah. Like, do you think I don't know that? Which one of us is experiencing it every day? Like, how stupid do you think I am? Like, hey. Hey? when was the last time you got misgendered? You tell me what it feels like, huh? Or maybe just let me talk.

Harvey:

Yeah, no kidding.

Pen:

Which is, hey, that is how... that is, I would say, the most significant way that my queer identity impacts my mental health, is that I am misgendered pretty much every day that I work, because I work at a library.

Harvey:

Hey, me... I don't work in a library, but I get misgendered everyday at work.

Pen:

And my coworkers try, and they still get it wrong sometimes, which hurts in a special way.

Harvey:

Oh, yeah.

Pen:

And it's like, okay. And it sucks. And like, other aspects of my job also impact sort of my baseline state. Like, right now, I can't listen to music when I'm working the desk, though, I am working on submitting some ADA forms, because I have to submit ADA forms to wear one earbud at work.

Harvey:

There's social ableism for ya.

Pen:

And I work at a good, decent place.

Harvey:

That's - that's the thing.

Pen:

That's the thing. But yeah, so... so, you know, have that baseline level of anxiety and stuff that's just, like, there, and then there'll be like a sudden loud noise or something, and I'm like, "Okay! Don't tell me where the craft blades are," which was a real thing that I had to deal with.

Harvey:

That's right.

Pen:

And then getting misgendered all the time, like,t he way that stacks up is, for, like, a solid week, I legitimately had to... like, I was dealing with self harm impulses every day that week, and it sucked so bad. And it's, like... it impacts my depression, which impacts my energy level and things, because being misgendered hurts. Hey, folks, I don't know if all of you know this, I'm sure some of you definitely do, microaggressions cause pain that you have to keep... just, you have to deal with it. You have to keep going through life. You don't get to tap out, and it makes everything so much more stressful.

Harvey:

It's - it's - it's rough. That's a pretty asinine statement, but it's - it's rough.

Pen:

I mean, it is. And that's not to say, like, my neurodivergence is 100% part of my identity. I mean, I make jokes about how having ADHD is my whole personality.

Harvey:

And, like, it's not.

Pen:

It's not my whole personality. It does, like... it impacts huge amounts of my personality.

Harvey:

It's a major part.

Pen:

Like, my ADHD is literally a physiological way that my brain is set up.

Harvey:

Right.

Pen:

Of course it impacts my personality! Because your personality, well, it's stored in the brain.

Harvey:

I don't know if you knew this.

Pen:

I don't know if you knew this. But, so, there's that. And there's also, like, another part of the impetus for this podcast, besides just I didn't want it to just be queerness, which, by the way, is why it's called, um... that's where Beyond Introspection came from, was it was like, you know, beyond that, which is why our email address is what it is, because we didn't actually... we just had beyond for a while, it was like, "Okay, there's gotta be more than this, but we should set up things." So that's why it's beyonddotpodcast, because we didn't... we didn't have the introspection.

Harvey:

It's okay.

Pen:

It is. But that's why... that's why all that is like that. That's a fun fact.

Harvey:

We're just a little silly.

Pen:

It's just trivia. And another part of it was because of a super cool thing by... ugh! Their name always... I think I messaged it to you. So...

Harvey:

You did. I think it's in the pinned message.

Pen:

Remi Yergeau has done some amazing writing that I read for a WGSS class, no surprise, on neurodivergence and identity.

Harvey:

About autism specifically, right?

Pen:

Yes, yes, because they are queer. Well... you can tell what I talk about the most... because they are autistic. They're also queer. You can tell because I'm saying they. But that was the first time I encountered the concept of being neurodivergent and proud. And also, neurodivergence being, like, a fundamental part of your identity. Which is, dang, that's something.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

I mean, when you've not thought about it before, it is a hugely significant thing. And when you're learning about your own ADHD for the first time, and it's like, "Am I proud of this?" And that's a complicated question to answer.

Harvey:

Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm proud of my autism. I'm not ashamed of it. But I don't know if I would... I don't know if I would say I'm proud of it.

Pen:

And it's, you know, thinking about it in a similar way to, like, you know, trans pride.

Harvey:

I'm definitely proud to be trans.

Pen:

Yeah. I have - I have pride in my transness. I... hm, my ADHD hurts me in some ways. And yet, a lot of the ways that my ADHD hurts me come from the unchangeable factors of my social environment, in a similar way to how some of the ways being trans hurts me comes from unchangeable factors in my social environment.

Harvey:

Pen and Harvey walk away with this with a teachable moment!

Pen:

[Laughter] I think that's the idea of the podcast!

Harvey:

Okay...

Pen:

No, no, yeah, yeah. But, no, yeah, it's... it's hugely impactful. Every part of our identities, impacts every part of our lives, and we're going to be talking about that, and we're going to be... I mean, I... I have, we have a list of topics and things, and somewhere on their list is being AFAB and dealing with... with these things, which I think is important to talk about, and also, talking openly about being AFAB is something I'm willing to do in the majority of my life. Talking about it on the podcast is harder.

Harvey:

Yeah?

Pen:

Yeah. Because these people only have my voice, and I know that they're probably uh, intentionally or not, misgendering me, anyway. So giving them... giving you, the listeners, this information about myself, it's a little bit scary.

Harvey:

That's fair.

Pen:

The fear that I'm going to now be viewed as more feminine. And also, let's talk about being AFAB and experiencing neurodivergence like AFAB ADHD, AFAB autism. They are different.

Harvey:

You mean the whole reason that, like, I'm not diagnosed?

Pen:

Yeah, the whole reason that I wasn't diagnosed as a kid?

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

Da, da, da, da, da, da. Bow! It's messed up.

Harvey:

It sucks. Not fun. Mm... dislike it.

Pen:

Also queerness in that. Disability, we're going to talk about.

Harvey:

Yeah, lots of things.

Pen:

Pen thoughts on that because of life. Yeah, yeah. All these things, these aspects. Ooh!

Harvey:

Hm?

Pen:

Just had an idea.

Harvey:

What's up?

Pen:

Religion.

Harvey:

Oh, wow. Pen, I was raised Catholic!

Pen:

I know!

Harvey:

Oh...

Pen:

Yep.

Harvey:

Ostensibly. No Catholic is a good Catholic. [Sputtering] I don't mean that as an all Catholic people are bad! I mean that as in most people who identify as Catholic don't follow the faith that closely.

Pen:

Also, they're all traumatized.

Harvey:

Well, there's that. There are some naughty things that I could say in reference to this, but this is the podcast that we put out into the world.

Pen:

I mean, this is fair, I might cut this part of it anyway. But...

Harvey:

Sounds like this conversation is winding down.

Pen:

I think this is... this will serve as - as a fair introduction to the season, as like, here are things we're gonna talk about, folks, and this is why.

Harvey:

Now, Pen.

Pen:

Now, Harvey.

Harvey:

Oh. Now, me?

Pen:

Now you, buddy.

Harvey:

Okay. Do you have any last minute thoughts before we wrap up here?

Pen:

If some of the stuff we talked about sounded heavy, it is because it is.

Harvey:

That's lived reality, baby.

Pen:

It is. And, um, that doesn't mean that it's all bad stuff. It really doesn't.

Harvey:

No. I mean, the kinship that I experience with people who are trans, and queer, and mentally ill, and neurodivergent have been some of the most healing interactions I've ever had.

Pen:

Oh, it's so nice. You talk to another neurodivergent person, and you're like, oh! Oh...

Harvey:

Oh, you understand.

Pen:

You get it. Yeah, so it's... it can be heavy, it can be hard. And also, it's more complicated than just good or bad. Because, I mean, it is just complicated. And I hope that all of this hasn't been too terribly, like, overwhelming or confusing for folks. I guess what we're really doing here is putting a lot of things that we have talked about briefly, and a lot of episodes into one, like,"Hey, here's the stuff. Here's the bits, folks." And also, I mean, we don't usually get a ton of interaction, direct interaction from our listeners, but if there is a particular aspect of our intersectionality that we talked about today, or... or that you might be curious about, shoot us an email or message on social media. And...

Harvey:

Yeah, please do.

Pen:

Yeah. I mean, just in general, it's great to hear from anybody who listens to us. But if there's a particular aspect of intersectionality that you would like to hear talked about in - in terms of neurodivergence as well, then, please.

Harvey:

Oh, do we have thoughts.

Pen:

Oh, I... oh - oh, do I have thoughts, Harvey.

Harvey:

And, you know, here's what I'll say: typically, our seasons are 10 episodes long. If the intersectionality season needs to go longer, then it goes longer.

Pen:

We can do whatever we want.

Harvey:

This is our podcast.

Pen:

I like... I like statements like that.

Harvey:

It's ours. We can do whatever we want.

Pen:

You can do whatever you want on the computer.

Harvey:

On the computer.

Pen:

Which is where this is stored. Harvey, do you have any closing thoughts?

Harvey:

That's a good question.

Pen:

Thank you, I do my best.

Harvey:

Definitely echoing what you said, about it's complicated. I guess...

Pen:

[Sing-song] Life is complicated.

Harvey:

I don't have any, like, profound thoughts or... or pieces of, like, wisdom to leave with our listeners. I think what I will end this with is actually revealing some of my own vulnerability and just, like, I need to think about why I'm not proud of being autistic.

Pen:

Yeah, I've spent a lot of time trying to unravel, like, am I proud of being ADHD? How do you... when it's your brain?

Harvey:

So that's gonna be something I consider for a bit.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

So, on... ah, we are hand - we are shaking hands.

Pen:

We are shaking hands.

Harvey:

So on that very meta note, stick around, we'll tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is run, and our Patreon. Beyond Introspection is an independently-run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at ByndPodcast or you can email us at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com. That's beyond d-o-t podcast, no spaces. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description.

Pen:

We also have a Patreon. You can find us at patreon.com/beyondintrospection. That's all one word. We also have links to it on our site and on our social media. Our podcast is entirely independent, so we pay for hosting fees and transcript service subscriptions out of pocket. This is a passion project that we're really happy to do, and any support you're able to give us would really make a difference. On our Patreon, there are four tiers: $2, which gives you access to test audio and other bloopers; $5 which will give you access to bonus episodes that will make in the future, on topics like how angry we are at Freud, our frustrations with our respective fields of studies and even guest episodes; $10 will get you a direct line and priority access to request episode topics and new bonus content; and $15, which will give you access to monthly AMAs--that's ask me anything for those who don't know--where we can answer questions ranging from the podcast process and we figure out what to record, more in depth questions about our neurodivergences, and more. All of those tiers will include benefits from lower tiers of course. Got feedback for us? Want to request an episode topic? Just feel like saying hello? Feel free to reach out on social media, or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.