Beyond Introspection: A Podcast About Neurodivergence & Identity

BEYOND Exhaustion

• Season 1 • Episode 10

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Harvey and Pen discuss how tired they are and where that exhaustion comes from.
Note:This episode discusses politics because they are, for better or for worse, an unavoidable part of that exhaustion.

Featuring: Our self-care routines include: not being on social media or reading the news; politics (spoiler: we're not fans of the Trump administration); a brief Sweet Bro & Hella Jeff reference; more politics (spoiler: we aren't fans of willfully ignorant people or all Democrats, either); 2020 was miserable, but we're still a-trekking.


Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People: 

https://translifeline.org/

USA Suicide Prevention: 

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

Internation Suicide Hotlines: 

https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines

Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People: 

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/


Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:

https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte

Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:

https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/

https://stopaapihate.org/


Resources for US Immigrants:

https://www.informedimmigrant.com/

Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:

https://immigrationjustice.u

Pen:

Welcome to the Beyond Introspection podcast. I'm Pen.

Harvey:

And I'm Harvey.

Pen:

This is a podcast where we talk about mental health, neurodivergence and how it impacts our life in literally every way.

Harvey:

All of them, non-optionally.

Pen:

Very non-optionally. And to that point, today we're going to be talking about how the state of the world impacts our mental health. I think specifically in how it exhausts us.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

And we wanted to, like, come out on the top of all of this saying like, some parts of this are going to be very similar, especially in kind of the overall topic to our two part episode of Blackness and mental health, and in fact, we might end up saying some things that are sort of similar to what Ari, Demetrea, and Trevon said. This is because, particularly for people who have marginalized identities, like their race, gender, sexuality, disability status, things like that -- there's far more to that list -- have that preexisting exhaustion.

Harvey:

Yep.

Pen:

And this is--it's also, like, it is based in, like, intersectionality, and stuff. Like, Ari and Demetrea spoke on, like, having anxiety and, like, being in therapy and stuff like that, and how that also intersects with Blackness and being tired.

Harvey:

Being a black woman especially.

Pen:

Yeah. So, yes, yeah, there's gonna be some similarities. That's because there are some aspects in which it's similar. I wanted to reiterate what you said in one of the early episodes, which is that--

Harvey:

Yeah, our stories are our truths, but they are not the truth. Things that are true for us are not necessarily universally true for everyone. And that's also not to say that our experiences should overshadow the experiences of other folks, particularly Black folks. Our experiences--our experiences are similar in some ways to Ari, Demetrea, and Trevon's, and different in other ways. And that's just it. We don't have to compare. We don't have to contrast. They're just different.

Pen:

They are. They are very different. But I definitely wanted to mention it, because it's a similar topic.

Harvey:

Of course. I agree.

Pen:

Yeah. And also, for context, we are recording this Saturday, January 9. So, three days after the 6th, and the domestic terrorism incident.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

Which--it is no coincidence that we were doing--we were not planning on doing this--this topic.

Harvey:

We were actually originally planning on an episode about trauma,

Pen:

Which is a bit--

Harvey:

It's a little much.

Pen:

A little much for us right now.

Harvey:

And so is this, frankly, but, like--

Pen:

Oh, yeah. But this is--this is much in a different--in

Harvey:

Yeah. And I'm on social media more than Pen, but different sort of way. We wer going to record on Thursday, th day after all of it, which wa the day that I found out, lik, literally any salient detai s about it, because I don't ke p up with social media or t e news, like, very actively. I's like, I check in a couple ti es a day, maybe. I found out a ot and Thursday was a really h rd d conveniently that day, I was off it for the most part, and I'm not on Twitter. Like, I have a Twitter account, but I don't use it.

Pen:

That's good.

Harvey:

Yeah, it's an act of self care. Given, I'm on Tumblr.

Pen:

That's what--that's why I'm no longer on Tumblr, is an act of self -- and I follow, like, maybe a dozen people on Twitter.

Harvey:

The thing is the Tumblr users - trademark - have all moved to Twitter.

Pen:

Yeah, I heard. I've--I've heard about that.

Harvey:

So frankly, our friend Emily is probably the most in tune with all of this actually.

Pen:

She has actually also stopped using Twitter as an act of self care recently.

Harvey:

I'm so glad to hear that.

Pen:

Yeah, me too.

Harvey:

But you know, in any case--yeah, I actually fully avoided all of this. Like, I heard through the grapevine, because I'm in about a gajillion Discord servers that it was happening. I just muted every channel that was talking about and I was like, nope, nope, we're not doing this today. I'm going to keep working. And I am going to play Sonic the Hedgehog. Don't talk to me,

Pen:

Which--it is, uh... and that's something that I have also experienced a lot. Like, it was surreal to think about, but last summer was when I used to, like, keep up with the news a lot. Like I would go to the Google News ap, and I would look at -- I, like, went to different news sites. I would do, like, CNN, and Fox News, and, like, Washington Post and different things to try and figure out, like, going against different biases and leanings, like, okay, what's the actual truth here? And it is so weird to think about. I could do that at one point.

Harvey:

Yeah, I--even at times where my mental health has been better, I can't imagine. Just--that's not the sort of thing that I would ever want to put effort into doing. You know, for as socially conscious as I try to be, I actually don't read the news.

Pen:

That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Harvey:

Yeah, and that's--that's definitely an act of self care on my part, which I can definitely elaborate on later. But it's--it's a complex thing, you know, kind of kind of balancing sort of upholding your beliefs - and one of the core parts of my belief system is that I should stay informed, and I should be aware of what's happening in the world - also, this is not exactly an exaggeration. A bit of an exaggeration, but it's semi-serioushe news sometimes kind of makes me want to die. So like...

Pen:

That is--like, that is that is the thing. Last summer, when I could do that, it wasn't necessarily good for me. Some of it was absolutely--like, I got into the habit, and then when my Adderall kicks in, in the morning, it's like, okay, now I'm going to hyperfocus on whatever it is I'm doing. And the news is such an easy path and getting you focused on, like, different things.

Harvey:

I mean, you're already prone to Wikipedia rabbit holes.

Pen:

And the news is basically just that.

Harvey:

Yeah. It's just instead you also deal with polarized politics, because we live in the United States.

Pen:

Yep. In this era. So last summer, I was, like, you know, keeping up on things, like the defunding of Planned Parenthood, which, you know, theoretically was about other things. But anyway... and the changes that Illinois was making, like when we were legalizing marijuana and recreational marijuana, and at the same time making efforts to decriminalize, and, like, those things like I was keeping very informed on that. In 2020, all of the news is about COVID.

Harvey:

Oh, my God.

Pen:

And just like, I'm living the pandemic life, just like everybody else. This is--like, it's--it's enough on its own. So it's the--everything's COVID, and other protests, and politics. And it just--when we were talking yesterday about doing this episode, I said -- it's sort of depressing--that, like, I'm gonna say, talking about this is relevant now, more than ever, except I also would have said that last month, and three months ago, and six months ago.

Harvey:

Yeah, it's--oh, my goodness. It is so much. And it just--especially in the past, like, four years, like, look, I--I'm not gonna do, like, the whole, "Oh, we don't try to be political here." We do. We're super political.

Pen:

Like, we're talking about our mental health.

Harvey:

In the United States, at least, that is inextricable from politics.

Pen:

Exactly.

Harvey:

Ever since Trump got elected, and look, I'll be--I'll be real. I hate Trump. I think he's a jerk. I think he is the worst president we've ever had. And that--and he has some competition.

Pen:

He has so much competition.

Harvey:

He has Andrew Jackson.

Pen:

That's what I was also gonna say.

Harvey:

Right? Right!

Pen:

I was also gonna say Andrew Jackson.

Harvey:

Yeah. So you know, I'm not a fan of Trump. And I will be forward about that. I was 16 when he was elected, so I have a lot of feelings about that election, because I did not have any word in it. And I got to watch, you know, neoliberals on social media say like, "Write in Bernie." And it's like, hey, do y'all have any idea how the electoral college works? And not to say that it should be there. It should be abolished, I think. But...

Pen:

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Harvey:

Anyway...

Pen:

An act of self care for the country is abolishing the electoral college.

Harvey:

[Laughter] But--but trying not to lean too hard into politics, like, every single year since 2016, for me, has just gotten worse and worse and worse. We--I already knew that Trump was a bad dude, when he got elected, and then--

Pen:

He didn't hide it.

Harvey:

No. No, he was--he was calling Mexican folks, like, rapists, like, during his campaign and his supporters were like, "Yeah! Hell yeah! Build the wall!" And it's like, okay. Okay, so you're just--okay, so you're finally admitting that you're racist this time? Okay.

Pen:

I read a Times--a New York Times--opinion article the other

day, that was--the headline was:

"Trump is a Wolf in Wolf's Clothing," and I think that's a very good way to put that like, it was there. We knew.

Harvey:

Like, y'all knew.

Pen:

It wasn't--this wasn't a little trick.

Harvey:

It wasn't a secret. But, you know, in any case, you know, there's been--he got elected and that was bad enough. And then LGBTQ rights started coming into question. Trans people legitimately lost rights.

Pen:

Sorry, it's--what kills me about that is, like, "LGBT rights are coming into question." It's like, it's almost generous to say that they were solid-- it's very generous to say that they were solidified in literally any aspect pre-Trump.

Harvey:

Sure.

Pen:

So it's like, oh, okay, so we just--

Harvey:

But if we're comparing it to the Obama era.

Pen:

Oh, yeah. Comparisonwise it went from "Hey, maybe--maybe we do get to be recognized as human beings," to "Oh, all right."

Harvey:

Oh, all right. I can't be in the military. Not that I would really want to, but it's kind of the principle of the thing. So yeah, I mean, it's--it's been difficult because as I'm coming into adulthood, I'm in this absolute, like, I can't swear, but like, - mm - show, you know, coming into adulthood, and I'm having to deal with all of this, and I was unmedicated for years, and years, and years. So...

Pen:

Oh, yeah.

Harvey:

It just...

Pen:

Oh, yeah.

Harvey:

It keeps happening.

Pen:

It just keeps happening.

Harvey:

It just keeps happening just keeps happening.

Pen:

I warned you about the politics, bro.

Harvey:

I warned you about the politics, bro.

Pen:

There might be, like, three people who listen to this that are gonna get a Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff reference.

Harvey:

If you know, you know. I digress.

Pen:

I think, like, that's a piece of it, is talking about politics is just going to be part of us talking about being exhausted, because that is a huge part of why we are exhausted and why it's hard to follow the news, even though we kind of have to.

Harvey:

Yeah, and look, we don't get the privilege of being neutral on politics. If you're white, and you're middle class, middle-upper, if you are particularly a man, you know, all of these things...

Pen:

And cis, and heterosexual, and have a stable job, and are not disabled in any aspect...

Harvey:

Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You know, you--you get to have the position. Well, I would encourage you not to, but you have the--at least theoretically, you have this position of like, "Oh, I can just be neutral on politics." It's--as much as I wouldn't like for this country to be as partisan as it is, I don't want to just kind of hear republican and go, "Ugh." But here's the thing, the connotations between the two parties are clear. And there's one that demonstrably supports my rights more than the other.

Pen:

Yeah, like that's--that is--and it's--it is exhausting to try and not just take the easy route in any of this. Like, just saying, like, okay, I'm gonna throw my chips in with--with these folks. Because I don't want to throw my chips in with Democrats to be frank.

Harvey:

Yeah, I mean, like...

Pen:

For a lot of reasons.

Harvey:

Like theoretically, I'm a registered Democrat. But do I like democrats? No.

Pen:

No, no, no, no, no. And I'm originally from an extremely small town, so I have a lot of experiences with people who are--who are conservative and identify as conservative. And we've talked about that a lot before. And a lot of it comes from, like, just sheer lack of exposure to some things is why, like, why are some folks from my small town, like, racist, intentionally or not? Because we're all white. I could literally count the number of Black students who were ever in my school.

Harvey:

Wowza.

Pen:

And that's not good news at all. And so like, coming out of that, and being exposed to more things--I'm deeply grateful for it. I'm so glad for that. Like, I want that very much. It just keeps being more exhausting as time goes on. And I try to be aware of so many things. And it's important. It's so important. And also, I am starting this--this task, this attempting to be aware and conscious and to do my best and to do my civil duty and to just be a decent person from a deficiency of energy and focus and capability. My brain does not produce dopamine in remotely the way that it is intended to, and there is literally nothing I can do about that.

Harvey:

Yeah, you can--you can take meds, but that still doesn't fix the problem. It helps, but...

Pen:

It is--it is a--it is a way to kind of--not masquerade exactly, but it's a fix for it. It's something to be done to get it to the point where I can do things, but it's still not

Harvey:

It's like slapping a piece of duct tape on, like, a perfect. It's still not what having a neurotypical brain is like. watering can. Like, it works and it'll make things a little better but you're still going to get, like, some leaks, and probably you're gonna have to replace that duct tape because it's gonna get soggy.

Pen:

And also, people can see the duct tape. And there's a lot of judgment involved in not being a perfect and traditional watering can, to just continue the metaphor. It's--it sucks. It's hard.

Harvey:

Yeah. And--and people don't seem to recognize that sometimes even, like, neurodivergent people who continue to struggle with daily events, like, especially when Tumblr was, you know, like, the epitome of Tumblr, there was a lot of rhetoric, like, there was super black and white rhetoric. And like, look, I'm probably autistic. I get--I get what it's like to think in black and white. But it was just so extreme with Tumblr, and it was like, if you are not checking the news every second of your life, you are a terrible person and you need to kill yourself. And it was like, okay.

Pen:

All right, let's--hey, let's--let's, uh...

Harvey:

So it's strange, because it's--this isn't just a neurotypical-neurodivergent dichotomy. This is such a deep rooted thing, that--it's just so pervasive, it's like you need to be aware of daily events, and you need to be a good citizen and perform your civic duty. And it's just...

Pen:

I would love to.I can't emphasize this enough. I would love to. I would love to be able to just do that. This--I talked about this a little bit on--on Thursday in the--in the group chat that we share. I am--I'm tired of some of my greatest accomplishments, being that I, when faced with stress, don't want to die. That when faced with stress, I no longer self harm. And I know that those are huge accomplishments. I'm fully aware, trust me, I'm so aware that they are huge accomplishments. I'm exhausted by having that be something that is, like, it's a continuous process. I am still working on it. 2020 was not the year--the hardest year of my life, mental health wise. And that is not a statement on 2020. I think we all know how hard 2020 was. That is a horrifying statement on the previous years of my life and how well I was coping.

Harvey:

Yeah, because I can say, sort of as my perspective of your friend, you weren't doing great in 2020.

Pen:

No, of course I wasn't. Of course I wasn't.

Harvey:

Happy 2021 by the way.

Pen:

Yeah, happy 2021.

Harvey:

Oh, yeah. Um, and you know, there was a thought that I was going to share when you were talking about conservativism. My experiences with conservativism are very, very different. I grew up in the Chicago suburbs. About... I would say 20 miles out from Chicago. Southwest suburbs, if any of y'all know what that surrounding area was like.

Pen:

I laugh because I have no idea.

Harvey:

You've been to exactly one of them.

Pen:

I lived on the opposite corner of the top of Illinois. Y'all were just all Chicago people to us.

Harvey:

I love that. And you know, if you are from the suburbs, and you say that you're from Chicago, Chicagoans will shoot you on sight. It will be like, "You are from Naperville. No, you're not." In any case, yeah. I grew up relatively close to Chicago, and--so the people in my life had more exposure to people who weren't white, and people who weren't cis, and people who weren't straight. And--and yet--and yet they still managed to be republicans in the sense of, like, being kind of racist and... and I shouldn't--I--okay, I shouldn't say that Republicans are inherently racist, because I don't genuinely think that's true. But the experiences of conservatives that I had, a lot of them were just kind of like willfully ignorant. Yours--the conservatives you dealt with, I think at least, like, some of them had the--had the genuine explanation of this is true ignorance.

Pen:

Yes. And there's--there's a lot to be said there on, like, whether or not that is, like--the level of responsibility there, particularly in, like, when you are poor and working class, your ability to know things and to look into things on your own is very different than when you are suburban and middle-upper class and you actually have free time.

Harvey:

And you have a cushy office job.

Pen:

And you've actually, like, met a Latino person.

Harvey:

Yeah, like...

Pen:

Latine, Latinx, Latin@.

Harvey:

Lots of different words that we can use. But yeah, I mean, you know, all of this to say, my experiences with current events and hearing people, mostly my family, defend these things that I just found horrible. You know, building this wall. Like, half of my family voted for Trump. And honestly, half might be a conservative estimate, it might be--it might be a heck of a lot more, I don't know. But that's the thing. When I grew up, and I dealt with politics, I had so many people who had access to information and free time, and exposure to other people, and they continued to be racist, and they continue to be homophobic, and they continue to be transphobic. And--and for me, like, obviously, not to discount your experiences, because I'm positive yours hurt, too. And I know, I know, I've talked to you about a lot of it. In some ways, the fact that my primary experience was people being willfully ignorant, that made it sting even more, and it made it so hard for me to be willing to even talk about it, because I didn't think anybody would get it.

Pen:

Yeah. Like, being essentially informed that it's not worth it.

Harvey:

Yes, yes.

Pen:

...that it's not worth it, that's--that is every day exhausting. That is every single day exhausting. And my experiences of very often being the only person who had, like, any kind of relative exposure, at first, because of just places I was on with the internet for a long time. That was my primary thing.

Harvey:

You can say Tumblr, it's okay.

Pen:

A lot of it to come from Tumblr. You know, from the parts of Tumblr that were actually more genuinely educational sometimes. Those were nice. Those were good. Finding out I was nonbinary, on--on Tumblr, like...

Harvey:

Yeah. Figuring like I was trans on Tumblr.

Pen:

A lot of us. Yeah, being the only one who had that information, and then having this, like, obligation to be the one who teaches, or notices more and more, like, all of the problems. And it's not that I want, like, wish I had been unaware of the issues of how the people around me were acting. It's that being aware of that, and knowing that, like, here are

my options:

to stay quiet, and feel that guilt and that shame and that awareness that I'm not doing everything that I can, and not doing everything that I feel I should; or to speak up and educate or debate and argue. Well, I'm like 16 and depressed and kind of want to die every day.

Harvey:

And a grown man says to you, "Oh, you think non binary people are real? debate me."

Pen:

And it's like--that is also completely exhausting on top of everything else.

Harvey:

It's like, don't you have some raunchy content on Reddit to look at?

Pen:

Like, it's--and again, like, this--that was all on top of being 16 and depressed, and literally not an exaggeration, wanting to die basically every day. So yeah, politics are pretty inextricable from how we are exhausted.

Harvey:

Yeah, it's--it's every single day. It is unavoidable. And it's like, I open the news, and then there's part of me holding my breath thinking, okay, what's the new way that I'm losing rights today? And sometimes that is genuinely what happens.

Pen:

Yeah, yeah, pretty much. And it's--to me, some of it is, like, knowing that it's like, okay, I'm being told, because I read my New York Times daily briefing every day, or almost every day, and whether or not I like the New York Times is less the point than the fact that I'm getting just a daily briefing delivered to my inbox so I can at least have a level of awareness of what is literally just happening. And knowing full well that, like, okay, the things I'm being told are with a bias. And also, reporters tend to state things as facts, even when we can't and shouldn't. And COVID has been quite the example of that. Making a lot of statements, like, broad, sweeping statements like, "this is how many people need to get vaccinated," or, like, "this is how it's gonna happen," or "this is exactly how deadly it is," and things like that. And it's like, we don't know, we can't know. Please stop. Just admit you don't know. That's okay. You can do that.

Harvey:

And it would do us a lot of favors, actually. I think if journalism wasn't so like, quote unquote "fact driven," and by that, I mean, everything is posited as fact, I think my mental health would be in a much better place.

Pen:

Exactly. Like, it's--

Harvey:

If it was actually clear what was opinion and what was fact, because that's really muddy.

Pen:

You know, that's--I think that's--I think that's a huge piece of how all of this, and all of this news, and all of this, like, just daily life is so exhausting is being--all of it being expected to be, like, 100%. All of it being expected to have some of that, like, even if it's not exactly black and white thinking, which it is most of the time, it's like, you're expected to have a level of certainty because you are being presented with these, like--you are being presented with certainty, which is not actually based on facts, because frankly, we can't have all of the facts right now. Instead of it being something where we can all, like, recognize and understand that it's okay to not know, it's okay to not be sure it's okay to live in that gray area, and it's okay to just say I don't know, or I hadn't actually thought about that, or I haven't looked at that, instead of being expected to have these, like, firm opinions, and to look at the news all the time. Like, if we as a culture and society, we're just okay with not knowing, I think that would do all of us a lot of good.

Harvey:

Yeah. I don't think we're ever going to get there, unfortunately, to be a bit of a pessimist, but I am not hopeful in that regard.

Pen:

I--I just--there's so much pressure from every side. And we are both--both of us--so--we are working so actively against--just, like, every day against just our own brains.

Harvey:

Yeah, I mean, if we existed in a vacuum, I would still be having such a tough time.

Pen:

Just like, fully on my own, if everything in my life was--if it was like January and February of 2020, when actually things were going pretty well, and I was at maybe the best point in my life with mental health and, like, self confidence, and that kind of stuff, which by the way, made, like, March and April, hurt so badly. To be struck with the lowest that I had felt in quite a while, that was--that was a pretty miserable dive.

Harvey:

Felt.

Pen:

Felt horrible. But even, like, then--even then I was still actively struggling against, like, okay, so my brain just doesn't produce enough dopamine. My social anxiety is absolutely debilitating, and has been for as long as I can remember, and these are just two fun facts, much less that every single time I introduce myself to someone, I have to either mention that I'm nonbinary and assert my pronouns, or just kind of let it go, but still be hyper aware of it, because I don't have any other choice there. And, like, these are just a handful of things that are every day. And then--and then the world just kept being what it is.

Harvey:

Yeah. Yeah. And so there's all of that. And then all of it is exacerbated by the world, in politics, whether or not it directly affects me. If it doesn't affect me, it affects people I care about, you know?

Pen:

Or just...

Harvey:

It's just kind of objectively horrible.

Pen:

Like, I know both of us are very compassion-driven. Like, we care a lot about other people, to our own detriment sometimes. So that's trauma, which is, like, that drive for selflessness to--to our own detriment. But we also like, I know, both of us just care about other people.

Harvey:

Genuinely, yeah. If I didn't have trauma, I would still care about people, I think.

Pen:

That takes so much energy to do.

Harvey:

And the other issue with that, and I think you'll relate to that is, when you do it enough, people take it for granted.

Pen:

Yep. And then that's also exhausting.

Harvey:

It's--it's exhausting. And then they get mad at you when you're not performing at this incredibly high level.

Pen:

And as you start to take care of yourself better and understand that it's not only okay, but like, in many times necessary to take step back--steps back, and to focus on yourself more battling against, like--at best, just battling against your own internal sense of guilt and shame on that, and then anytime there is someone outside of you saying, like, actually, you're not doing enough anymore. It's like, how do I assert my own health here?

Harvey:

Like, how do I say that I have been giving you my all for months, and I just need a minute to care about myself?

Pen:

How do I tell you that I have to do this or I will be unwell? Literally. Just like, I will be hurting myself. And I shouldn't have to.

Harvey:

Yeah, it's--it is troubling. So, yeah. It's a lot.

Pen:

That's just every day, and that's exhausting and it's... oh, God.

Harvey:

It just--it just doesn't stop, is I think what it boils down to. Not only do I have to live with myself every single day--which sounds a lot funnier than it is--not only do I have to live with myself every day, but I also have to live with the world and how I know that there are major swaths of people out there that would just rather that I didn't exist, and also knowing that there are people who don't have to deal with that and think I'm unreasonable for being hurt by it.

Pen:

Yeah. It's--and I had a relatively recent experience in trying to, like, assert my own existence and my own needs as--specifically my needs as being what they are. Which is I had a job offer that I was going to start with, and....

Harvey:

Harvey punch.

Pen:

I had recently--relatively recently discovered, like, hey, headphones do a lot for me in terms of sensory issues, which I have slowly begun to realize over the past few years, like, I have very, very real sensory processing issues.

Harvey:

Oh, yes.

Pen:

I am extremely light sensitive. I have a lot of auditory sensitivities, and also auditory processing issues in ways that don't show up kind of like it's expected to. Like, I don't get migraines under bright light, but I am fundamentally uncomfortable in a waythat just impacts every part of me.

Harvey:

No, and that's--that's true for me, too. My sensory issues don't generally physically hurt me, but there's, like, a lot of psychological effects to it.

Pen:

Which makes them harder to recognize, even internally and then really hard to justify to people.

Harvey:

Yeah, 'cause people--people understand"bright lights give me migraines," more than "bright lights make me feel bad." Both are valid, but people don't think of them as on the same level. But they are.

Pen:

Yeah. And there's like--again, there's nothing I can do about that, but I have discovered, like, just wearing headphones and listening to something is so super helpful for me. And so at this--when I was emailing the--the manager at this comic book store, where I was possibly going to be working part time and like, "Hey, would it be okay, if I--if I wore headphones," and saying like,"This is specifically because of, like, my sensory processing issues, and I know I'm going to be able to do better work if--if I can do this, and like, obviously, I want to find compromise wherever possible. And I don't want to, like, look as though I'm not--as though I'm not working," like, offering, like, I can try and find those, like, invisible earbuds where you put them in, and they're, like, not super visible at all. because they're, like, flesh toned and all, and whatnot, and tiny, and have low batteries and cost like $50. But you know, I'm trying to drive to meet literally any compromise, I can and I get told flat out explicitly, there is no compromise here.

Harvey:

And also, they rescinded the job offer.

Pen:

Yeah, because I said like, if--if this can't happen, like, I might not be able to stay long term. And they were like, "Well, there's absolutely no compromise to be met, and if you won't be able to do a long term thing, it's better just to not start."

Harvey:

And, you know, saying there's no compromise is one thing. To fully rescind the job offer, like, what on earth is wrong with you?

Pen:

And it's--being told that there is no way to compromise on something that I have explicitly said is, I use the comparison of, it's like walking on a broken ankle. When I don't have, like, the headphones or some other way to deal with my sensory processing issues. Like, I can do it. There's not a doctor alive that's going to recommend you walk on a broken ankle. I'm not gonna be able to walk as well or do anything as well. But okay, sure, I can try and do it for you. And just being told, like, nope, that's it, we're done.

Harvey:

Like, no, you're going to walk on this broken ankle. And actually, if you can't stand on your feet eight hours a day, you may as well just not stand at all. Like, what?

Pen:

Not only is it you'd have to work a walk on this broken ankle, but we're no longer going to give you the opportunity to walk on a broken ankle. And it's like, okay, so this is just my life. This is just something that I'm going to have to deal with and try and justify along with my gender all of the time for the rest of my life. And then COVID is also still happening.

Harvey:

Like, okay.

Pen:

So, uh, yeah, I'm tired.

Harvey:

I can tell you--now, this this may come as a surprise, considering my voice is very masculine, I very, very long hair. And this is relevant because--

Pen:

I hate gender roles.

Harvey:

Right? But no, I have really long hair and I have for years. And this is relevant because I used to work retail. And what I would do in retail sometimes is I would sneak my earbuds under my shirt, and I would hide them under my hair and I would listen to a podcast or music, like, regularly while I was at--while I was being a cashier. And do you want to know what? Well, I didn't tell my manager. I was not allowed to do that, for the record. I was breaking several rules. But, do you want to know what? Bo one ever knew. I was still able to interact with customers, I was still able to talk to my manager, it was absolutely fine. So I digress. That manager was stupid and I'm gonna punch him. That--for legal reasons, that's a joke.

Pen:

It's just--the refusal to recognize that people have needs. And, like, specific to this podcast, that being neurodivergent means you have particular needs. And, like, realizing--like, the comic book stores is local and pretty small. And by the way, a place that I used to just absolutely love to go.

Harvey:

It is actually a chain.

Pen:

Yeah, but it's also, like, local there, too. There's only like five of them total.

Harvey:

That is true.

Pen:

And, most importantly, they don't have 25 employees, so they aren't required to have accommodations under the ADA, which also, I don't necessarily want to try and figure out how exactly I might qualify under the ADA. Though, at least my psychiatrist, I think, would write me a note if it had to be, which it shouldn't, but here we are. But like, people refusing to see, even when it's spelled out for them, that neurodivergent people have particular needs, and are--and have the right to ask for reasonable accommodations. And--and I promise, I know what I'm talking about, you know,?

Harvey:

Right. It's like we say these things, and it's like,"You don't really need that." Like, have you lived in my shoes?

Pen:

Like, I'm gonna ask you something: do you think that me bringing this up is making my life better in any way? Like, do you imagine I would bring this up if I--if I didn't really need it? Because this whole thing sucks.

Harvey:

Like, do you think I just go to the grocery stores for fun and be like, "Hey, give me accommodations," because every single time they're going to be like, "No, leave the store." And it's like, you know?

Pen:

Like, hey, do you think that I open up about having ADHD and needing a particular accommodation with a whole, like, paragraph of explanation, and offering to make all kinds of compromises just for the sake of my health because it's fun for me, or because it in any way, like increases my odds of keeping a job? Because that's wild. I don't know how to tell you this. That's a really bad assumption. It doesn't. It's exhausting. I'm tired.

Harvey:

Yes.

Pen:

I would leave this by the wayside. in a heartbeat. But I don't get to.

Harvey:

Yeah. We should start wrapping up soon.

Pen:

We should, yeah.

Harvey: So, Pen:

final thoughts on the world and how that affects you. Neurodivergence. That was really awkward grammar.

Pen:

It's--it's great. Yes.

Harvey:

You neurodivergence.

Pen:

I am neurodivergence. And I'm tired. And that's because everything keeps stacking on top of itself. And even just in context of being neurodivergent, the ways that it stacks up, are--at its core, I am fighting against my own brain to do the things I am expected to do just on a base level. Like feed myself or not get paralyzed by any level of stress for an unspecified amount of time, which does happen, by the way. And then adding on top of that, the other responsibilities and obligations that I have, and just a desire to be informed as a person and a citizen of the US, puts me through a level of strain that is actively harmful, and that there's no easy solution to and that's just my life that I'm living.

Harvey:

No, I think that those are basically mine as well. Yeah. I mean, I'm tired. This sucks. But we have each other, and we have people that care about us, and we care about other people.

Pen:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. None of this--the message I want to come out of this is not life sucks, and then you die. [Laughter] It's not--the point of all of this, isn't--hey, guess what? That's a quote that I have from Twilight: Breaking Dawn. That is where I first read that phrase from the perspective.

Harvey:

[Laughter] Sorry.

Pen:

No, it's funny. You should laugh.

Harvey:

Go ahead.

Pen:

No, I'm glad we can have a lighthearted note here at the end, because the point that I think--neither one of us were trying to make the point, like, everything's horrible, pity us.

Harvey:

This was very cathartic for us, though.

Pen:

This is--we wanted to talk about being tired. And also explain, like, hey, this seem like useful perspective for eurotypical people in articular to have. This is why e're tired. This is how we're ired. This is why we keep alking about the things we're alking about.

Harvey:

Yep. And hey, know that you aren't alone.

Pen:

You aren't. And even though I am tired every single day, I'm also okay, broad strokes. Like I said, like, I don't want to die. I don't self harm. Even though 2020 was horrible, I got out of it, and I'm gonna keep getting out of--I'm gonna get out of all of this.

Harvey:

Yeah, I'm still a-trekking, too.

Pen:

And like, that's because we have each other, and because we can take care of ourselves even within these limits. And for everyone who is experiencing this, and also, for those who are not, this is really, really hard, and that's just true, and we should all know that and recognize it and do what we can to minimize it. Also, we have strength, and we have resilience, and we can get through this. And those things, that strength, that resilience should never be minimized.

Harvey:

Yeah. And don't let anyone tell you that you're not allowed to be hurt by this.

Pen:

You get to be hurt. And every time you get through it, you are doing something amazing.

Harvey:

Yeah. Very well said. All right. Well, why don't you stick around for just a few more moments and we will tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is run, and our Patreon.

Pen:

Yeah!

Harvey:

Beyond Introspection is an independently-run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at ByndPodcast or you can email us at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com. That's beyond d-o-t podcast, no spaces. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description.

Pen:

We also have a Patreon. You can find us at patreon.com/beyondintrospection. That's all one word. We also have links to it on our site and on our social media. Our podcast is entirely independent, so we pay for hosting fees and transcript service subscriptions out of pocket. This is a passion project that we're really happy to do, and any support you're able to give us would really make a difference. On our

Patreon there are four tiers:

$2, which gives you access to test audio and other bloopers;$5 which will give you access to bonus episodes that will make in the future, on topics like how angry we are Freud, our frustrations with our respective fields of studies and even guest episodes; $10 will get you a direct line and priority access to request episode topics and new bonus content; and $15, which will give you access to monthly AMAs--that's ask me anything for those who don't know--where we can answer questions ranging from the podcast process and we figure out what to record, more in depth questions about our neurodivergences, and more. All of those tiers will include benefits from lower tiers of course. And also just to note, unlike our regular episodes, Patreon bonus content is likely to include swearing, so if that's not your vibe, please know that ahead of time. We'd also love it if you're able to share this podcast with people you know. Our only advertising is word of mouth and we want to reach as many people as possible.

Harvey:

Got feedback for us? Want to request an episode topic? Just feel like saying hello? Feel free to reach out on social media, or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.