Individual INTROSPECTION: The Chill Talks About Stimming

Pen and Harvey are separate hosts in this episode! Due to Pen's secondhand COVID exposure, they were not able to record in the same room for this one. Instead, this episode is split into two parts, where they both answer the same prompts about the same topic: Stimming.

Featuring: What does stimming mean?; Quiet Hands Is Awful; Harvey and Pen have similar ideas - who would've guessed!; Stimming & Self-Expression; Folks, it feels so bad to suppress the desire to stim; Tangents



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Transcript

Pen: 0:00

Hey everybody, this is Pen. I just wanted to come in at the top of the episode here to let everybody know that this is going to be a slightly different episode than what we usually put out. Typically, Harvey and I record in the same room because we live in the same building, and we don't leave the house much, so it's fairly safe. But unfortunately, I recently had a secondhand COVID exposure, so for now, we aren't being physically near each other until we can be sure it's properly safe again. Because of that, we have both individually recorded half of this episode, we had the same prompts that we came up with together and then we sat down on our own and recorded our responses to them and our thoughts, and I have put the two together to make this full episode. I'm hoping this format can be used again in the future for times when we can't record together and especially if it's that our schedules just cannot line up properly. As always, we'd love to have your feedback, and we totally welcome it. I would personally love to know what you guys think of this format, if this is something you can see yourself enjoying in the future, if you enjoyed it this time. All of our contact info is in the podcast description at our website beyondintrospection.buzzsprout.com, and we will also, of course, have that at the end of the episode in our credits. Hope you enjoy the episode.

Harvey: 1:30

Okay, question number one: do a little self define of stimming. Well, I think the definition of stimming is kind of embedded in the word, isn't it? Sort of in my mind stimming is kind of a commodification of the word 'stimulus.' Sort of, with stimming, you're having your body experience some kind of stimulus, whether that's, like, a visual one, audio, tactile, kinesthetic, you know, what have you, some kind of stimulus that brings you joy or pleasure in some sense, whether it's, like, a comforting stimulus, like maybe holding on to, like, a soft blanket that you like, or, like, a very classic example, like, flapping your hands when you're happy, just some way of kind of externalizing feelings, I feel like. All right, and then question two: what are your primary ways to stim? Um, you know, I think largely I rely on kinesthetic stems or vestibular. And what I mean by that is, in the case of kinesthetic, I like to move my body around, and, you know, like, physically do small, repetitive motions with my body. And vestibular, sometimes--the vestibular sense has--has everything to do with balance. So sometimes I like to change my center of balance. Like, I like to hang upside down off my bed. You know, things like that. So--but more on the kinesthetic stims, I do flap my hands to some extent. I also have this pretty specific stim where I kind of flap my hands against my shoulders. I find the--sort of the impact of my hands hitting my shoulders very satisfying. I don't do it hard. It's not like I--it's not like a self harm thing. I'm not making it hurt. I just kind of like the--the--the gentle pressure of that kind of stim. Okay, and then question number three: stims you did as a kid versus stims as an adult. This question is actually really difficult for me to answer primarily because I don't remember my childhood all that well for various reasons, so I am not sure if I could tell you exactly what I did to stim. Something that I do remember doing is I remember I would, like, scratch my arms a lot. Again, not hard. I just--I just kind of like the scratching motion and the sensation. But I do--what I do remember is that when I did things that were physically unusual, what I remember is that I was usually told not to do that, either by my family or by teachers. It was often actually more by teachers. My parents didn't care as much, but my teachers always were like, "Hey, quit moving, sit still, put your hand down," like, you know, things like that. So I honestly don't think I stimmed very much as an adult--er, as a child--entirely because I was sort of punished for it. But as an adult, really, I just do the things that I've been wanting to do my entire life. So you know, like I mentioned, some of the hand flapping, some of the slapping my hands against my shoulders, hanging upside down from my bed. You know, things like that. I think those are--those are--Maybe that's not a super good answer to that question, but it is the truth. All right, and then question number four: top five stims, go! Okay, uh, hands slappy on shoulders, hand flapping, hanging upside down by bed. Um, hm. My God, do I have two other stims that I can think of? I like--I like putty. I really like kind of just, like, stretching putty, making snapping noises with it. I also like making--I also like making pretty strange noises with my mouth. Some humming noises. I'm not going to mimic the noises, I think, because I'm a little bit embarrassed by them. Oh, and you know what? This reminds me: stims that I actually did do as a kid, I did make a lot of noise with my mouth. I would hum or I would whistle. Other strange noises, things like that.

Okay, and question five: 6:07

what does stimming help you with the most? For me, it's--it's largely a stress relief. When I sit, I do have a bit of trouble sitting still, and I think that that's an anxiety thing, but... stimming is a really good way for me to kind of get rid of that nervous energy that builds up inside of me when I'm sitting still, especially for an extended period of time. And also if I'm--if I'm in a position where I'm experiencing a great deal of stress, stimming can be a way for me to externalize--to externalize those feelings. And also, sometimes I just stim to externalize happiness. So it's not just an anxiety thing, it's also like, an expression of joy. Okay, and then question number six: how do you feel about stimming? Well, I think that stimming is pretty baller. I think that--you know, there's this common idea, especially in the behavioral treatment of--of autism, that suppressing self stimulation, or eliminating it entirely is desirable. And there's a--there's a common phrase, particularly with autism moms, I think, what is it... quiet hands. Quiet hands, you know, don't--you know, and that's sort of getting at the idea of, you know, flapping hands. I think that stimming is a good thing. It's natural, even for neurotypical people. I mean, everybody participates in some kind of self stimulatory behavior. If you've ever bounced your leg, hey, congratulations, that is a--that is a form of stimming. It just happens to be more common, and in some ways more visible in neurodivergent people. But, yeah, I think the idea that we should--that we should eliminate stimming in--particularly in autistic kids--I think that it's awful that that is a common thought, and I think it's, like, super unethical. Because when--I can speak from experience--when you are in a position where you have to suppress stims, that can be really, really stressful, and it can feel really, really bad. And in some ways, stimming is a way that I prevent myself from having meltdowns or panic attacks and things like that. So, you know, those are my general thoughts on stimming. All right, and then question number seven: do you hide your stems? Yes. Listen, I've been--I've been masking my symptoms of autism for my entire life, entirely, because, um, you know, some of the behaviors that I displayed that were consistent with autism were pretty discouraged. And, you know, I got bullied for some of it. So like, you know, for me, even though I think stimming is such a wonderful thing, and I don't think there is any shame in it, I have a lot of shame associated with it. I don't want people to look at me. I don't want people to think that I'm weird. I don't want to be punished for things like that. So yeah, I do. I do hide my stims, primarily in public.

And then question number eight: 9:55

best part about stimming versus worst part about stimming. Yeah, yeah. For me, I think the best part about stimming is just having an opportunity to externalize my feelings. Things like happiness and anxiety are such, like, abstract concepts, aren't they? Like, they're--they're so hard to make concrete. So I think--I think stimming is a--is a really great way for me to kind of put that on display. And also to just get it out of me, because it can be really, really overwhelming to have all of those feelings just, sort of, inside of you. So for me, that's the best part about stimming. And sort of the worst part about stimming for me, I think, is some of the stigma associated with it. Because you know, if I do stim in public, like, people do look at me, and they think that I'm strange. It's--it's not socially acceptable, and in some cases, if someone is in the know, it clocks me as someone who might be neurodivergent. And again, I don't think that there's any shame in that. But the fact that I am neurodivergent is not something that I want to advertise to the entire world. Which I guess is sort of ironic, now that I'm doing this podcast with you, Pen. But you know, the odds that some rando in the Walmart listens to our podcast is pretty low. So I don't want to advertise it to the world in that context, if that makes sense. All right, this is an interesting question. Number

nine: 11:31

top five worst stims. I'll be real, I don't actually have an answer to this question. Like, there aren't really any stims that I participate in that, you know, are--that I dislike, you know? I--I do stims--I do stimming entirely because it makes me happy. But I guess if maybe the question is sort of the worst, like, five sensory inputs, I hate the texture of Styro--ooh, I'm like cringing when I think about it. I hate the texture of Styrofoam, and the sound of it, just styrofoam--Not only is it bad for the environment, but it's bad for Harvey so we should get rid of it. I also, this is ironic considering that I'm an artist, but I'm, like, shivering as I talk about this. I hate--I hate the texture of paper. Paper has such a bad texture, especially with dry hands. I really, really dislike the sound of humming. Um, I don't--I don't know if I have two more. And frankly, my body is becoming like, really uncomfortable as I'm talking about this, but I think like off the top of my head, those are some sensory inputs that I really, really dislike.

Okay, question ten: what's best: 12:53

tactile, visual, audio, kinesthetic, or vestibular stims? I touched on this earlier. Tactile stems are cool. I'm not a huge fan of visual or audio stims, but I do really, really, really like kinesthetic and vestibular stims. Those are easily my favorite. I really just like to move my body. I like to change the way that inhabiting my body feels.

Alright, question 11: 13:22

why do you stim? Um, you know, I touched on this earlier, but for me, largely I stim because I want to externalize my feelings, or I want to release some of the nervous energy that I have in me. So I think--I think those are my primary motivations.

All right, and then question 12: 13:46

covert ways to stim. So things like fidget spinners. I know that fidgets spinners have a bit of a bad rap because they went so mainstream and they, more or less, became toys for a lot of people, but I think--and you know, for me, as somebody who stims, fidget spinners really aren't that great, at least for me. But if you are somebody who likes to stim with fidget spinners, fidget spinners could actually be a really great way to covert stim, entirely because they are so mainstream. Fidget cubes are also a good option. Honestly, there's a website that Pen really likes that is starting to grow on me, too, called Stimtastic. And they sell a lot of stim toys. And a lot of those stim toys can be, like, really covert, and in a lot of ways, they just look like, you know, little toys to carry around that, like, nobody would probably think anything of if you brought them into a public place and just started, you know, messing around with. So I think just stim toys are--although this is counterintuitive, I think stim toys are a really great way to stim covertly.

Alright, and then question 13: 15:06

what does it feel like to suppress a stim or the desire to stim? It feels bad, folks. It feels, like, genuinely, like physically uncomfortable. Like, I have this really strong desire to, like, you know--you know, bump my hands against my shoulders, but, you know, I'm in public, so I don't feel comfortable doing that. And just like, I can feel this, like, nervous impulse building up in my body, like screaming at me to move my body, but I just know that I can't. So it just feels like this massive buildup, and it's--it makes me really, really uncomfortable, and it sort of causes me to get like, kind of anxious and maybe quicker to be overwhelmed

And then question 14: 15:56

why is stimming important to you? Um, I think, you know, like I said in every other question, stimming is important to me because it is a way for me to manage my anxiety and my tendency to get overwhelmed, particularly with stimuli. I also think it's just important conceptually, entirely because stimming has been kind of demonized for most of the history of the treatment of mental health. You know, I took a class recently at my college that was about behavior modification. You know, I want to be a counselor, so I want to get a better idea at what are sort of the frontline treatments for neurodivergence and mental illness, and one of the things that consistently came up with autism was eliminating self stimulatory behaviors, and you know, me, possibly being autistic, like I don't know, but I have my suspicions, and relying so much on stimming, like, arguably, I am a more functional person, because I stim. The idea that one of the goals of behavioral therapy, particularly for children, is to get rid of stimming is so troubling. Um, now, if we're talking about an autistic adult that says, "I don't want to stim anymore," that's another story. But particularly in the case of kids, like, there is no reason that we should be eliminating stimming unless it's a form of self harm. It's important to me because I really think that we ought to destigmatize it. It's--it's so hugely important to most of the neurodivergent people I've met. So really, part of it is, it's important to me because I want to advocate for it.

Okay, and then question 15: 17:49

what are some misconceptions about stimming? Hmm. You know, I know I posed this question, but I'm actually not totally sure how to answer it. I think one of the bigger ones is that it's something that, like, only autistic people do. It's very common in autistic people, but this is also something that you see in folks with ADHD, I'm sure as Pen will touch on. This is something that people with anxiety do entirely because of the the nervous energy aspect. That's--my anxiety is also part of why I stim. And also, like, I think the biggest misconception is that it's harmful. And it's really not. The only reason why it is in any sense is because it's stigmatized. And you know, the sooner we start challenging kind of those assumptions about stimming and all that, I think the sooner it genuinely won't be harmful anymore. There are some very rare cases in which stimming can be harmful, if, like, someone's, like, hitting themselves, that is a case of harm, but--but there's no reason that we can't, then, use behavioral therapy, for example, to give that person a non-harmful stim that serves a similar function. So I think--I think those are some misconceptions. All right, and then last one, question 16: what do you want people, or particularly neurotypical people to understand about stimming? I think the biggest take home message, these--these will serve as my final thoughts about stimming, I think my take-home message is that stimming is helpful. It's--it's not a bad thing. In many ways, stimming is how people with anxiety, people with autism, people with ADHD, cope with the world. Living in the world as somebody who experiences things like executive dysfunction and--and, you know, overstimulation, it is sp difficult to just go through the world every single day. And stimming is part of what makes that easier for me. It's--it's part of what makes me able to go through life. It's--it's not harmful, so long as I'm not harming myself. And really, there's no reason that we--why we should be encouraging people to suppress their stims really, unless they want to suppress their stims. And that's another can of worms that we can get into another time. But yeah, maybe, if you think that stimming is something that is pathological or harmful, I would encourage you to challenge that notion, and think about ways in which stimming might be helpful, or even ways in which you might stim.

Pen: 20:50

Hi, everybody. Here is the Pen half of the episode about stimming, because I put in the podcast description back at the start of this, that we even include chill talks about stimming, and then we haven't talked about stimming, I think, at all so far. So I'm excited to be finally getting to that. So, I have not actually currently listened to what Harvey recorded, which should make for something pretty interesting. This is--this is an exciting little experiment that we're doing with this episode. And again, I would love--I would love y'all's feedback on this format. But I'm going to start off with a little self-- a self defining of stimming. I would--I mean, it comes from like, obviously--stimming comes from just, like, the word stimulation. It's something that I think--I've seen--I've seen, like lots of different neurodivergent communities, and people sort of regardless of their relative diagnoses, use the word stimming. But I think it's most common for people who are autistic and people who have ADHD. I think I've seen it more in people who have autism. I think that, from my understanding, that's where the term kind of originated, but I know as someone who has ADHD, oh, boy, do I stim. Oh, my goodness, I stim. And actually, I do think--I am of the mind--I think people can really benefit from stimming, even if they're not neurodivergent. That was one of the--one of the other prompts that we had is, what do you want people to understand about stimming, especially if they're neurotypical. And that's something that probably I'll have a more complete way to answer at the end. But I do think, like, broad strokes, what I would love for people to understand about stimming is that it's--it's--it's honestly a pretty normal thing. It's--I guess I didn't actually define it properly. It--stimming is--it's giving yourself stimulation, basically. It can look so many different ways. If you are one of those kids who chewed up pencils back in elementary school, without really meaning to, like, that's a way to stim, is like, putting something into your mouth and just just chewing, that's a--I think that that counts as a tactile stim. And there's those--those, like, the pendants made of silicone that people have sometimes. And let's see, if you... oh, I don't know if anyone remembers, like, grippers for your pencil. They were the little like, kind of jelly--jelly-like things sort of, and they're usually like, dark colors and, like, sparkly, and you'd put them on your pencil, like, where you grabbed it, and it would make it so, like, the wood didn't dig into your skin or whatever. And I used to like, sort of fold them up, up and down the pencil. So they would turn into like these little... little tubes kind of. I don't have a good way to explain it. But just like the moving it down and the rolling it up and stuff, that was, in retrospect, a stim that I used a lot in middle school. And there's others. There's other forms of--forms of stimming, like flapping your hands around. That's a that's a pretty common one, and that's something that a lot of people historically, from my understanding, a lot of autistic people have been shamed for and told not to do. Quiet hands, I think is what it--what it's called. And that sucks, because stimming is--like, there's a reason we're giving ourselves stimulation like this. It's because it helps us process, it makes our brains work better. I don't have all the science for it. Maybe Harvey did some of the science for it, because that's what they--that's often what they end up bringing to the podcast. But it's--it can be for when you're overwhelmed and you're overstimulated, so you do a stim with something that calms you down more. And that might be, like, a tactile stim, like if you have something that sort of soft and fuzzy, and you can rub your hands on it, like, that can be helpful. It might be to, like, engage your brain more, like when I was in class and I would roll the grippers up and down the pencil. It was because I needed more going on. I needed some kind of stim to--to help me be able to focus more, and that's something--that's something I've experienced through a lot of my life, even if I didn't really understand it at the time. It's--it essentially, is giving ourselves stimulation through these different forms, because it helps us - helps our brain work better. If that's reducing anxiety, if that's just giving us something to do, whatever the reason, it's--it's helpful ,and I think that what I'd really love for people to understand about it is there's nothing wrong with it. And that's something I--that I want neurotypical people to understand, so we don't have more, like, "quiet hands," stuff. But also neurodivergent people who don't realize like, yeah, you're chewing on your pencil or your hoodie, string or whatever, because it's--it helps you out and that's okay, there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing shameful about that. And probably all of this will make a little bit more sense as I get into--into more of these prompts and stuff. My primary--my primary way to stim. I think I'm primarily a tactile stim person. Like, there's these tactile standings where, you know, something that you're touching, and I have, I have some putty that I use for that, as well as other things. My mom got me this little, like, brainteaser puzzle thing that you have to, like, bend around and it's all just one stick on, like, a string and stuff. Like cubes on this little string. Fidgets! You know, fidgets, like fidget spinners, which people made fun of a lot, like, there were a lot of jokes about fidget spinners. But genuinely, you know, people use them a lot, and it could help with anxiety or was just enjoyable, and there's a reason for that. That's--that's stimming. Just spinning around the fidget spinner, that's a stim. So if you're the kind of person who really got a lot out of that, and you didn't know why totally, fun fact, that's--that's a form of stimming. And that's great. And I'm glad that you had that, and that it was helpful. And I hope that that helps you to understand more about stimming, especially tactile stimming. There's also visual stimming, which is--if you've ever seen those, like, slime videos, where people just, like, move around the slime, or I really like those short videos that are just, like, quick recipes, because it's super satisfying to see things getting made like that. I have always enjoyed--it's, like, really satisfying just watching something happening that people are very proficient in. Like, if I'm watching someone draw, like, a time lapse-- a time lapse video of drawing or painting or something, that's very enjoyable. Or, like, fish swimming around can be super satisfying to look at. And then there's audio stims, which I guess I'm not totally sure that audio stemming is like super a thing. Maybe, like, humming. Like, really satisfying sounds like that. Or, like, the sound of fans. I know that I used to, before I was medicated for ADHD, and sometimes now still, even, have to listen to music while I was doing other things, and I think that kind of counts as a form of stimming. I've always referred to it as giving my brain something to play with, so the rest of me can just do something. And I wasn't exactly, like, ever processing the music consciously, though now I can sing, like, a bunch of Vienna Teng songs by memory, because that's what I would always put on. But I could--I could sing them without actually knowing what the lyrics were. Which is--it's a bit strange, maybe. But I think--I think in might count, in that it was--it was me giving my brain stimulation so that I could process other things better. And then there's vestibular or kinetic stimming, which I don't--I don't know the exact definitions for that. Harvey is the one who introduced me to the idea but it's--it's stuff like rocking back and forth. And I think that's where, like, flapping your hands, shaking your hands around falls in. I know I used to, when I was in high school, and I worked in Subway, I would, like, tip back on my heels until it was far enough that I had to sort of, like, step back to catch myself. And I would do that whenever I was bored, like, rock back and forth until I had to catch myself on it. And my coworkers would be like, "Hey, what are you doing? Like, you're gonna fall over. Stop that." And I was like, "No, it's just--I'm just--I'm bored, so this is just what I do." And at the time, I had no idea why I was doing it. I was like, maybe this is kind of weird. And then I learned, you know, later, like, oh, I was just--I was stimming by just moving because it felt good and it gave me something to do. So yeah, that's that's my basic understanding of all the different kinds of stimming, and also some examples of--of how I've done them. Yeah, so let's see, one of these. Top five stims, go: Okay, um, let's see, I love using--oh, I get these these like spinner necklaces--I used to get the rings too, but I can't really wear rings as much anymore--where they have like--like--like a circle on it, and, like, a bead in the middle where you can just sort of--you can hold it, like spin it around. And I love those. I wear one pretty much every single day. And that's something that's really useful for covert stimming, because there's a lot of forms of stimming that are, you know, looked down upon in public, like if you rock back and forth or flap your hands, or if you have one of those pendants that's, like, silicone that you can chew on. A lot of people look at you sort of strange for doing that. But the necklaces are really subtle, and they look like regular jewelry. And I can just spin it around a bit, and people don't really notice, which--which is great if I don't feel like dealing with it, because I'm not ashamed to stim. I know it's something that I just enjoy, and I don't need to justify. I also know that people can look--look at me, like I'm weird for doing it. And if it's someone that I don't really know well, and that I'm not going to be interacting with much, especially if I have absolutely no idea if they're going to be, like, open minded and chill about the idea of oh, wow, yeah, neurodivergent people exist, and sometimes your brain's just different and it doesn't make you a freak, then I--then I prefer more covert stims, like the necklaces and the rings and stuff. But if it's people who I am going to be around more, and who I--who I feel more comfortable with in general, then I don't really hide my stims. Like, in a place I used to work, everyone there was pretty cool. I was comfortable with them, and so a few times in, like, our staff meetings, I brought my stim putty, and I remember one time I just, like, literally covered my entire hand in it. So my hand was just encased in the putty, and I remember my supervisor looked over me like kind of strange like, "Okay, Pen. All right, you sure are doing that," but that was--that was it. And it was nice. It was great. I felt a little embarrassed about it, maybe, but I'm glad that I did it. Shoot, yeah, I was talking about top five stims. So the--the tactile stem of, like, the spinner necklaces and rings. Let's see... stim putty. So, like, something malleable that I can just move around in my hands. I like to--to rock back and forth, or side to side. I'm often less conscious of doing that one, but definitely, if I'm just, like, standing talking to somebody I like to--to move in some way. Let's see... what else? I like to kind of mess around with things. Like, I don't have Legos. I'm not--I'm not a Lego person anymore, and I never was much as a kid, but I used to have these little, like, sticks with magnetic balls that you could build into different creations and things, kind of similar to Legos, except it's, like, magnet based stuff. And I always enjoyed those. I like--I like little things that I can, like, build with and stuff. That can--that can always be fun. And then like I said--oh, it's really--it's really, really, really satisfying to see people just do things, like, with their hands and such. Like I watch my girlfriend play her bass--her bass guitar. And I'll just, like, watch her hands while she's doing it, because it's just satisfying, and I'll get, like, sort of visually stuck there, andn my brain just sort of--like, parts of it sort of--it feels like they shut off. And I'm still thinking and everything but it can be kind of soothing. Which, yeah, stimming's great for that, where it just kind of calms your brain down a little bit. On a similar note to that, one of the visual stims that works for me is laser lights. Like, you know how cats will go wild for laser lights if you put them on the floor and dart them around, that works on me. We discovered, if you use a laser light, like, I will stare at the wall, and I'll kind of jerk my head to the side and around. And I could snap myself out of it, but it's enjoyable, and when I'm around people who don't mind, and who aren't judging me, and we'll just like, shoot a laser light around. I'm like, "Oh, this is excellent. This is great. I'm so entertained." Stimming helps me a lot in being able to focus and calm down, and also just express myself, kind of. Like I said, When I'm with--when I'm with people who aren't judging me or anything, like, it's just really enjoyable to do. I like rocking around or playing with the putty or--or watching things or listening to things that just make me feel kind of happy in the way that stimming does. It's--it's self expression in some ways, and it's also really, really excellent for when I feel overstimulated or, like, just a bit understimulated. Like, if I'm talking to somebody and the only thing I'm doing is talking to them, I love to use stim putty so that I'm--so that my brain can let me just focus on them without feeling understimulated, because understimulated is a very, very strange sensation. And it's--especially, like, the--the spinner necklaces and things are, like, great for when I'm overstimulated, Like, just focusing on this one little thing that I'm moving around. It's a really good anxiety--it's good for--good for dealing with anxiety, which I've dealt with my entire life, so it's great to have things, like a simple thing like that, where I can just, like, hold on to the the necklace and spin it around a bit, and just have that on me all the time. Um, let's see... best thing about stimming versus worst part about stimming. The best thing is, I love doing it. And the worst part is having to feel like I should justify it or that it's too strange to do it in public, which I've talked about a bit.

Top five worst stims, go: 36:05

number one, easy: cotton balls. If I touch a cotton ball, it's--[stammering] just thinking about it, it's horrible. It's[Pen groans]. And this is something I share with my mom also. Like it's--we just--both of us. It makes me want to gag. I hate the feel of a cotton ball. It's horrible, and I could not tell you exactly why. There's some sounds that are, like, really bad sensory input. And I don't know if that counts exactly, but the sound of people chewing. It's--it's really, really horrible, and it like makes me angry, sort of reflexively, and I don't like that. I don't want to feel like that. And I know people just can't help that sometimes, like, they chew and I can hear it. But it's a really unpleasant, like, sensory input. I hate it. [Pen groans]. I don't--And this is stuff, like, if I could control it, I absolutely would. I'm extremely sensitive to light. If there's too much, and especially if it's overhead, it's just, oh, it's horrible for me. And let's see... silence sucks. Like complete silence, in no small part because I don't have complete silence. I have tinnitus. And I think I've talked about that before. And I'm pretty sure it's, like, sensory processing issues tinnitus. And so I, like, always have to have a fan on, and that's--I think that's part of why I always had to listen to music when I was doing other things, because my brain just makes some tinnitus noise, and I have to deal with that. and so if it's complete silence, like, that can be pretty horrible sometimes. And also, there's, like, some kind of high pitched ringing sounds like--like a xylophone, or... oh, there's something else that it's called, I think, but the ones where it's like metal, and people use like crystal mallets on it. Fun fact, that sounds like tinnitus, and it's horrible. And so those are--those are some of the worst sensory inputs for me, and stimming really helps with those, and so do things like noise--like noise cancelling headphones and things, which is not exactly stimming, but it is great for overstimulation, which I think, like, stimming and over stimulation and understimulation are, like, inherently linked. Let's see... what else do we have here in it? What does it feel like to suppress the desire to stim? It feels really, really bad, largely because the reason that I will ever suppress it, like, not rock back and forth or not use, like, a spinner necklace, or the putty, or anything is because I'm afraid of people judging me. I'm afraid of people making me feel ashamed for this thing that I do just for me that isn't wrong, and I know it's not wrong. But that doesn't make it easier to deal with, the fact that people think that there's something wrong with me for doing it. I hate that people will look at the perfectly natural stims that neurodivergent people do, like flapping hands, or chewing on things as wrong, or as childish, when it's just part of who we are and how we interact with the world, and how we find our own happiness and self expression, and I hate so much every time I'm made to feel like that's something I shouldn't do. And that's why I've found a lot of joy in talking to people about it. And sometimes when I've talked to people who, to my knowledge and to theirs, are neurotypical like--like my friend Trevon, who was on the two-part episode we had on Blackness and mental health. Trevon's great. He has borrowed my stim putty a lot of times, and he loves it, and to both of our knowledge, he's neurotypical, but that, like, it's still great for him, and I've loved every time I can talk to people and be like, "So this is something I used to stimn" and they're like, "Oh, I love that. That's--that's awesome!" And sometimes it's like, they didn't even know this stuff existed, like the putty or the spinner rings and things like that. They're like, "Oh, oh, that's great. I didn't know you could just have that, and just do it!" And I'm over here like,"Right, isn't that? That's awesome. That's--that's, you can just do it. And you can just have it and it's fine." And--and if it helps, because it does help, then why on Earth shouldn't we do it? There's--there's these, like, social ideas and rules of what you should and shouldn't do. And like, there's so many ways that all that stuff is broken, but one of them is just, like, why should we not express ourselves? Why should we not be a little loud, or move around, or chew on a silicone pendant? Like, there's nothing wrong with that. We aren't harming anyone. We're expressing ourselves and making ourselves feel better, and I don't think we should ever be asked to suppress that, and I don't ever want to. And there's a certain level of sort of bravery, I think, in stimming in public. And I'm not saying that to just call myself brave, though, I do think that there are ways that--that I am brave in being publicly neurodivergent. And I try very hard to be, to not cover up any of this. I think--I think it's wonderful to go out and be yourself, and know that people might look at you a bit strange, but still insist on taking care of yourself in this way, and not apologizing for how you exist. Yeah, yeah. I'm excited to listen to what Harvey had to say when I edit their half of the episode, and I hope you guys liked this. And again, I would love feedback on this format, and also just the podcast in general. Like, I'm really, really glad that I get to do this with Harvey and I always really hope that it's--that it it's helpful, or at minimum just, like, enjoyable to listen to. So yeah, yeah, I don't know if Harvey finished theirs with stick around and we'll tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is made. But if they didn't, or if mine ends up being the second half, stick around and we'll tell you some more about how this podcast is made.

Harvey: 42:50

Beyond Introspection is an independently run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at byndpodcast, or you can email us at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com--that's beyond d-o-t podcast, no spaces. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description.

Pen: 43:15

We also have a Patreon. You can find us atpatreon.com/beyondintrospection. That's all one word. We also have links to it on our site and on our social media. Our podcast is entirely independent, so we pay for hosting fees and transcript service subscriptions out of pocket. This is a passion project that we're really happy to do, and any support you're able to give us would really make a difference. On our

Patreon there are four tiers: 43:35

$2, which gives you access to test audio and other bloopers;$5 which will give you access to bonus episodes that will make in the future, on topics like how angry we are Freud, our frustrations with our respective fields of studies and even guest episodes; $10 will get you a direct line and priority access to request episode topics and new bonus content; and $15, which will give you access to monthly AMAs--that's ask me anything for those who don't know--where we can answer questions ranging from the podcast process and we figure out what to record, more in depth questions about our neurodivergences, and more. All of those tiers will include benefits from lower tiers of course. And also just to note, unlike our regular episodes, Patreon bonus content is likely to include swearing, so if that's not your vibe, please know that ahead of time. We'd also love it if you're able to share this podcast with people you know. Our only advertising is word of mouth and we want to reach as many people as possible.

Harvey: 44:31

Got feedback for us? Want to request an episode topic? Just feel like saying hello? Feel free to reach out on social media, or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.