Beyond Introspection: A Podcast About Neurodivergence & Identity

Recovery: It's Beyond Relative

• BeyondPodcast • Season 3 • Episode 10

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Pen and Harvey discuss recovery, including what it means, their own experiences, and what the roadmap can look like.

Featuring: We have jobs (and it makes podcast recording hard to do); Harvey Is Forced To Define Recovery; Piano Lessons & Childhood Trauma; Don't yell at 7 year olds; Sometimes recovery just means being okay enough; "26" by Paramore; Hope.

USA Suicide Prevention:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

Crisis Textline (both SMS and What'sApp friendly):
https://www.crisistextline.org/

International Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines

Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
https://translifeline.org/

Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People (including text and online chat options):
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/get-help/

Pen:

Hello everybody, and welcome to Beyond Introspection: A podcast about mental health, neurodivergence and how it impacts our life in literally every way.

Harvey:

All of them.

Pen:

I'm Pen.

Harvey:

And I'm Harvey.

Pen:

And this time we're gonna be talking about recovery.

Harvey:

Wow, we haven't recorded in, like, 12,000 years.

Pen:

Yeah, it's actually been - it's been a minute. But you know, we've been doing the podcast long enough that right before I hit record, I was like,"Do I remember the intro? Oh, shoot, I do!"

Harvey:

You got it right for the most part. It was pretty close.

Pen:

What did I? What did-

Harvey:

It goes, um, "A podcast about mental health, neurodivergence, and how it impacts literally every aspect of our lives."

Pen:

Oh.

Harvey:

All of them.

Pen:

All of them. Ah, well...

Harvey:

You got the same effect, so like, who cares?

Pen:

It scans. That's what counts.

Harvey:

Exactly. I'm not - I'm not a real stickler about it.

Pen:

Uh, yeah, so, Harvey...

Harvey:

Pen?

Pen:

Do you remember the first segment of our show - segment's funny. It implies that this show is a lot more structured than it actually is. But do you do you recall what the first segment of our show is? Besides giving Pen a hard time about the intro?

Harvey:

Ugh, hey...

Pen:

It's a joke, it's a joke!

Harvey:

Of course I do, the Wahoo! Moment of the Existence.

Pen:

...of the exist- right, yes.

Harvey:

Of the last time we recorded.

Pen:

Yes.

Harvey:

Time is not real.

Pen:

Time is not real.

Harvey:

Pen, tell me! Tell me about a recent-ish Wahoo! Moment.

Pen:

My Wahoo!-

Harvey:

Wahoo!

Pen:

That's my Wahoo!, is just listening to you say it.

Harvey:

I'm a good mimic.

Pen:

You are. Yeah, so I thought about this right before we hit record, also..

Harvey:

Obsessed, as usual. That's okay.

Pen:

Yeah, yeah. I think, especially given I don't know how long it's been exactly, and have probably gone through multiple hyper fixation since then, as is my want.

Harvey:

Yeah, I was gonna say at least two...? I don't know, I'm just pulling a number out of my- out of my behind. Anyway, Pen, please.

Pen:

I like my job. My job's pretty good. And I know I've mentioned before that my job is pretty good, and I feel pretty good about it.

Harvey:

Ohh, sleepytired.

Pen:

A little bit. It's an end-of-day recording instead of afternoon recording.

Harvey:

Unusual. I was at work, like all day,

Pen:

But I like my job, and also, it has been such a major facet of my social anxiety getting better.

Harvey:

That's awesome.

Pen:

And it's really cool to get to, like, consciously notice,"Oh, wow, I feel really confident right now. Like I feel fine." Like on - yesterday, I was at work, and I finished up a project I was - I was putting together, which is a little guide on our 3D printers.

Harvey:

Super cool and important.

Pen:

Because, uh... and not like- like, we have manuals for them. But I'm the one who uses them the most, and so it's kind of like, you know, experiential knowledge with our specific ones. Here's the basics that are useful.

Harvey:

Right, and you have some of that troubleshooting knowledge that might not occur to everyone.

Pen:

Mhm. And also the knowledge on like, "Hey, so this is something that's worth troubleshooting in the moment, this is something that's really not. Like, leave this for later. Or ask Pen." And I added some jokes to it, because I'm really funny.

Harvey:

God, I love you.

Pen:

The, um, my least favorite of the 3d printers, a Sculpto. Hey, if you're thinking into 3D printers, one Prusas? I'm really bias, but Prusa's a great brand; two, don't get a Sculpto, don't get a Sculpto, don't get a Sculpto. Don't - don't do it. Don't get it. Don't - don't do it. It's not worth it.

Harvey:

Well, there goes that sponsorship deal.

Pen:

It's - it's one of those that, like, mom blogs, where there's, like, the first entry, and it's like, "Wow, it was so great, and it was super easy to hook up and use with my kids!" and then there's an update a month later like, "This was a waste of money, don't do it." But yeah, so I added some jokes, like our Sculpto that my boss uses, and he likes it, and I'm happy for him, but...

Harvey:

Well, that's unfortunate.

Pen:

Look, I'm glad that-

Harvey:

Not that you're happy for him. That's okay.

Pen: And so, I have Sculpto:

First heading, Expectations: If you're not Mark, please do not use this printer.

Harvey:

That's pretty good.

Pen:

Thank you.

Harvey:

Mark.

Pen:

But yeah, so I made up that guide, and I printed it out and I was like, "Hey Mark, will you look at this?" And he was like,"Yeah, sure." And it occurred to me like, hm, a while ago, I would have felt so anxious about handing someone a thing that I had made. Like, literally, doesn't matter what it was. But especially, like, I'm making a guide for people, like staff who want to use our 3D printers, I'd be, like, so nervous about any small correction, and then I realized at that moment like I felt fine and confident about what I'd handed him. It was just, like, fine. I was like, whoa!

Harvey:

Look at you!

Pen:

I didn't know that could happen.

Harvey:

And look at how well that connects to today's topic, which we'll get into soon.

Pen:

Oh right, yeah! So Harvey, what's your Wahoo! Moment of Time. Time? Time.

Harvey:

Yeah, I... [laughs] I feel like I say this every time we record, and it's probably because, lately, we've been doing such long stretches without recording. I've been going through it again. There's- there's been a couple things. Going through another breakup, just generally another depressive spell, because that's how persistent depressive disorder works. But I have a new job.

Pen:

Harvey has a job!

Harvey:

I have a job and it's my very first full-time job.

Pen:

Haha, job-haver.

Harvey:

Okay, pot calling the kettle black, but all right. In any case, yeah, I have my very first full-time job. And if I'm being honest, I don't think I knew entirely what I was walking into, because I have a very, I'll say emotionally intensive job. I work in a domestic violence shelter as a case manager, which is a lot, but it's...

Pen:

That sounds like a lot, yeah.

Harvey:

You know, everyone there is honestly just wonderful. I've only had positive interactions with my coworkers and my supervisors.

Pen:

Nice!

Harvey:

It's... no, everyone there is really lovely, and even though I know I'm going to be in for a difficult ride with this job, I think it's going to be worth it. And I'm really looking forward to doing something with my life that really feels like it has an impact.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

Like this is going to be... if I do my job well, this is going to be such, like, tangible, positive stuff. I kind of lost my train of thought in the middle of that, but you know what I'm saying.

Pen:

Like, you're doing something that has a positive impact on people's lives, and you get to like, see that, and that it's a really big deal, even.

Harvey:

Yeah, and you know, it's not always going to be sunshine and rainbows. Actually, probably most of the time, it's not going to be, because this is - I mean, this is domestic violence. These are people who have gone through hell.

Pen:

Yeah. Like there's - there's not a... you walk in, and it's bad.

Harvey:

It - these are people who are deeply, horribly traumatized. And if I can be part of the solution, that's super exciting. Also, it pays 21 an hour, and I have benefits, which is exciting. So yeah, that's - I think that's mine.

Pen:

That's great. I'm really happy for you. And I'm proud of you. And I love you very much.

Harvey:

I love you too. And yeah, as I sort of alluded to...

Pen:

Speaking of trauma!

Harvey:

Yeah. Uh-huh. Kind of as I alluded to, when we were talking about Pen's, Wahoo! Moment of the Time, we're talking today about recovery, which is maybe one of the broadest things I could have said today, but...

Pen:

It is, now that I'm thinking on it, a very vague thing to say. Which is not a complaint, because I...

Harvey:

'Cause, well...

Pen:

You posited this a while ago, because we ended up not recording.

Harvey:

We were having audio issues that day.

Pen:

We were having audio issues. But I'm very into the idea of - of doing something on recovery, I think, in part, because it's so open.

Harvey:

Yeah. Like, it can be so many things.

Pen:

Harvey, talk about what recovery is.

Harvey:

Sure! Recovery can mean a lot of things. And it honestly really depends on, you know, what sort of dimension of recovery we're looking at. As it pertains to mental health, for some people, recovery might be total remission from symptoms. So that might be, at one point, you met the clinical criteria for depression, and now you don't. That could be a kind of recovery. Sometimes, you know, if we're talking about, like, substance use, for example, recovery might be using less often. And maybe not using hard drugs anymore. Maybe... maybe using something a little bit lighter. And, you know, going back to the mental health perspective, it could be that recovery - the way that I define recovery is just the ongoing process of... let me think...finding meaning in your life and finding function while accommodating for your particular struggles, which is a really wordy way of putting it, but I think, you know, with me coming up with an off-the-cuff definition, I think that's probably how I would conceptualize it. That it's just, recovery, to me, is this really ongoing process of learning how to not just work around, but also work with, your individual challenges to make a life that is meaningful and productive to you, whatever that means.

Pen:

Yeah. Making the choice and the effort to improve upon whatever it is that is harming, that is negative.

Harvey:

Yeah, yeah, I think I think that gets at the idea.

Pen:

Or just like, I mean, improvement upon the negative, if we're going extremely broad.

Harvey:

Yeah. It can be... it can be a lot of things, which is kind of why this is such an oddball topic, because it's just... recovery can be so many things that it's - it's honestly a little bit tricky to define without thinking, "Oh, wait, but what about this? And what about that?" and so on and so forth.

Pen:

And for our purposes, and also for us as people, really strict definition is really not necessary or - or wholly useful.

Harvey:

I have a degree in gender studies, of course not.

Pen:

I just made you do it, because you're the psych one.

Harvey:

Yeah, no, that's fair. That's - that's - that's my job in this...

Pen:

Honestly, I'm so used to you being like, "And I can define that," that I was like, yeah, let's just throw it to Harvey.

Harvey:

And yeah, I mean, well, I appreciate you having that faith in me, and also, yeah, there's not one definition of recovery. Kind of the point of recovery is that it's going to be very individualized, depending on your specific struggles and your...

Pen:

And goals.

Harvey:

Yeah, that's the thing. I think so many people have it in their minds that recovery, with regard to mental health, means just behaving like someone who is not mentally ill, or as, like, a neurotypical person. And for most people who struggle with their mental health, I'm gonna say that's just not realistic.

Pen:

No. There are cases where that's not going to be, like, possible. Obviously, it would be wonderful if everyone who meets the criteria for... as the basic example, depression, someday doesn't, but that's... that's a really, really big goal, and you're going to put a lot of pressure on yourself to get to that point, and it's actually going to harm your recovery to do that.

Harvey:

Yeah. And I think, you know, before I get too ahead of myself, and so we don't do like the... the stream of consciousness that this podcast ends up falling into, Pen, I know you had some specific thoughts on recovery that you were talking to me about over, like, Discord, I think. So I was wondering if you wanted to touch on that.

Pen:

So recovery for me, when I'm thinking about it, it has largely been tied... like it's so tied to trauma for me, and you know, a lot of the time when I talk about my trauma, I'm talking about my childhood trauma. But there's also... maybe there's trauma and being mentally ill...

Harvey:

Inherently.

Pen:

...and experiencing it, and like...

Harvey:

With how just alienating the experience of being mentally ill is, yeah.

Pen:

And how much it sucks.

Harvey:

Yeah, it just sucks.

Pen:

Like, if depression didn't suck, [laughing] If depression wasn't miserable and horrible to experience, it wouldn't be what it is. Which is a... kind of an odd way to phrase it, but...

Harvey:

But I get what you're saying, I think,.I don't know if I could explain it, but I think I understand.

Pen:

It's,... it's like, you know, experiencing these things. It's not just the symptoms themselves, it's the awareness of the symptoms, and living with the symptoms, and like... I had to recover... not only did I have, like, the experience and process of improving my mental state, and no longer actively being super depressed, or having as many depressive episodes, I also had to work on, like, sticking to positive habits, not... like, the after-effects of what depression does to your mind.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

You know?

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

Of what it does to relationships and all of that, like it. It's not just recovering from the actual symptoms, it's recovering from the experience.

Harvey:

Well, yeah. And you know, I'm not going to get super in-depth with this, because I think I would just spend way too long on the topic, but depression and many other mental illnesses, but because we're talking about depression and your depression, depression changes your brain. It's... like, I'm reluctant to say brain damage, but it... in some ways, it does legitimately damage your brain, especially when you are chronically depressed. Which, if... well, I've known you long enough to know that that's what it was.

Pen:

Oh, yeah. And it's - it's complex, and obviously, that also had to do with childhood trauma. And... and so, recovery for me is so intimately tied with trauma, whether that is the childhood trauma or the trauma of experiencing mental illness. Or, I mean, there's trauma and having ADHD.

Harvey:

Yeah. Again, alienation.

Pen:

Alienation is trauma and being disabled.

Harvey:

Wow, who would have thunk it? In an ableist society?

Pen:

For real.

Harvey:

That's crazy.

Pen:

And, you know, there's all of that. And what I was thinking of, most recently, with talking about recovery was linked to my childhood trauma, because everything's about my childhood trauma.

Harvey:

Natch.

Pen:

Everything. Ask my therapists.

Harvey:

And I mean, we could have a legitimate conversation about how pervasive trauma is, but continue.

Pen:

I think the most particular form of recovery for me, or way that, like, recovery from certain aspects of my childhood trauma has manifested is in relation - my relationship with the piano?

Harvey:

Oh, yes, that's right.

Pen:

And this is very, very specific. So we can get back to it later if you'd prefer. So like...

Harvey:

Actually, I'd love to hear your piano story.

Pen:

Okay, so I have - my piano story is, um... it starts in a bad place.

Harvey:

Okay. Vibes.

Pen:

So when I was five, my mom was like, "Hey, pick a musical instrument to learn." Because you know, that's good for kids. It's like a good thing for their brains.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

This is not the sad part. That's fine.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

And I was like, piano, which is a pretty good pick. I'd say.

Harvey:

It's a very difficult instrument to learn, but it's a cool one.

Pen:

It is. It's a neat one. And it's very transferable. Like, I played the flute later, and I already knew how to read music and all of it, and like, when you learn the piano, you learn how to read both treble and bass clef. I guess not alto clef, but that's only for violas, so who cares?

Harvey:

Exactly. Well, probably violas.

Pen:

Probably violas. This is what happens when you're dating someone who played upright bass.

Harvey:

That's right. God, I forgot she did that.

Pen:

Yeah. And she's happier for not doing it anymore. Better for her hands, too.

Harvey:

Yeah, yeah, that checks out.

Pen:

But I was like, piano. So we got an electric piano. And I have very, very vague memories of this, because, you know, I was five. And so they put me into piano lessons, which is the thing that you do when a child needs to learn how to play an instrument.

Harvey:

Yeah, give them lessons so they can learn.

Pen:

I was in piano lessons from age five to age eight.

Harvey:

Okay.

Pen:

And it became... it's like, capital P, capital L, Piano Lessons, when I talk about those in my childhood.

Harvey:

So they got pretty serious.

Pen:

It was extremely bad. It... I don't like going into depth really, necessarily...

Harvey:

And you don't have to.

Pen:

...on certain aspects of certain consistent aspects on my childhood trauma.

Harvey:

Sure.

Pen:

But my mom took it very hardcore. And it was like, 30 minutes a day, every day. And it was a... I'll just say it was a problem if that didn't happen, or if I didn't meet certain standards. The other major part of it was that my piano teacher was not a very gentle woman.

Harvey:

Ah.

Pen:

I was a really easy crier when I was a kid because I was extremely, extremely anxious.

Harvey:

Yeah. And also, kids just, like, cry.

Pen:

Yeah, you know, especially that from when they're, like, six or seven years old.

Harvey:

Have you ever interacted with a six year old? They're so sensitive, and who can blame them? They don't have the, uh... the life experience to self regulate. Yeah.

Pen:

So hey, Harvey.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

What would you... if there was a seven year old who was playing the piano and kept making a mistake, and... and got anxious and cried about it, what would - what would you maybe say to that seven year old?

Harvey:

I think I would say,"Hey, it seems like you're getting really frustrated. And I know it can be really hard when you keep making mistakes. Let me show you... um, why don't we take a little break first, and then once you're feeling a little better, why don't I show you how I do it, and then we'll try again, okay?

Pen:

So you wouldn't say, "Stop with the waterworks!"?

Harvey:

Heavens, no. Jesus, why would you do that?

Pen:

I don't know. But that was her tactic.

Harvey:

Uh, I'm gonna bite her?

Pen:

Yeah, she yelled at me for crying...

Harvey:

That's so ugly.

Pen:

...which, you know, made me cry more.

Harvey:

Obviously.

Pen:

I was seven.

Harvey:

You can't just tell a child not to cry. They're just gonna learn to stifle their emotions.

Pen:

Yeah, they will. They did, in fact. And that wasn't just because of her, but she was certainly a negative impact on my mental health as a child. So that was her and so she was really strict about it, and it wasn't... and it was a whole thing, and also... so there's actually some stuff on people with, especially ADHD and autism, but neurodivergent people being able to play by ear.

Harvey:

That's interesting.

Pen:

It is. It is. And there's like... I don't know how much research there is in it, but it's a well known enough phenomenon that like...

Harvey:

I've heard of it.

Pen:

...I feel pretty confident, like, that is why I can play by ear, but I've always been able to do that.

Harvey:

Sure. Well, and you've always had ADHD.

Pen:

Yeah, sure I sure have! The brain's always looked like this.

Harvey:

Wooow.

Pen:

But you know, so that means, um... and that is - it can be, if you default to playing by ear, it can be detrimental to you knowing some of the fundamentals and the basics, because you're not... because then you're going - you're not paying attention to some specific things. You're predicting what should come next, instead of reading the music, or like, you know, doing the fundamentals that are genuinely important for you to build upon.

Harvey:

I'm not a musician, so I believe you.

Pen:

That said, playing by ear is also considered a skill that is worth honing. People take classes to learn how to play by ear.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

I didn't learn that until I was 20.

Harvey:

Oh, wow.

Pen:

And my girlfriend, you know, who was at the time a music major, told me that, and was like...

Harvey:

She's extremely talented.

Pen:

Extremely! She's... she's really, really good, and really, really cool. I like her.

Harvey:

We like Girl Lloyd.

Pen:

We do. But she... I was like, yeah, I can play by ear. And she was like, "Oh, that's - that's great. Like, people do that." And I was like, what? Because my piano teacher yelled at me for playing by ear. And it was a major thing, she - she would get on me about it all the time because I did that all the time, because I could predict what was going to come next. So I just naturally did it.

Harvey:

And I'm going to be frank, you were at least partially in survival mode.

Pen:

Mm-hmm.

Harvey:

In the sense that... to your seven year old mind, whether or not you were an actual danger, you felt threatened. And so, I think in some ways, you were probably trying to avoid harm.

Pen:

Oh, yeah. And like, of course, I was working more by instinct. I was a child and a beginner. And my brain was like, oh, we know what the next part is. And I was right, a lot of the time.

Harvey:

But it wasn't the, quote unquote, right way.

Pen:

It wasn't. And there are some parts of like, the fundamentals, that genuinely, it's totally fair. And there are other parts of like, you should never talk to a child that way.

Harvey:

Yeah, like, being that firm with a child who is upset because they're frustrated, and because they're being snapped at, the... this is like, you know, like... human skills 101 that you just - if somebody is getting - and you're going to hear me use language that I would use it my job - if somebody is getting escalated, the point is not, then, to escalate it further.

Pen:

Yeah, no. And also like, I wouldn't even be crying because I was frustrated. I was crying because I was scared, because I knew if I made mistakes, she was going to be mad at me.

Harvey:

Exactly.

Pen:

So like, it was all just... but then learning that, like, playing by ear isn't a bad thing, and in fact, people will try to learn how to do it, I was like, are you kidding me right now?!

Harvey:

I bet.

Pen:

I assumed, because of how hard she was on me, that I was not good at playing the piano, and that I was just like - that I was bad at it, and I never got good at it. Come to find out, according to my girlfriend, the music major, not only do I have- I think because I started at such a young age - I do have like, kind of a natural aptitude for it, because, you know, it's like when kids learn languages at super young ages, they just kind of have it forever.

Harvey:

Right.

Pen:

I have that with at least some aspects of playing music in general, but especially with playing the piano.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

I started at five. There are parts of it all that I'll always know.

Harvey:

It's just part of your procedural memory at this point.

Pen:

And according to her at least, like, it kind of comes through in the way that I play, even if I'm just, like, messing around. And also that, like, playing by ear is a cool thing that's worth cultivating. And I was simultaneously so like, wow, this is... like, it's a relief to learn this, and it's interesting to learn this, and... and this is valuable, and so mad.

Harvey:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Pen:

And - and I found some of the old books that I was learning from and playing from, and I was looking at it, and I was like, wait I played this when I was seven years old? Hey, I was pretty good! Are you serious right now?! You mean I was good at this, and you guys treated me like hell?!

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

So, you know...

Harvey:

That's real.

Pen:

That was... that was why it was Piano Lessons, capital P, capital L, when - as I was getting older, because it was, like, Piano Lessons were bad. And it was largely because of my girlfriend, actually, had her, like, very gentle encouragement, and just genuine, like... just saying what she meant and the stuff that she was saying was just, like... things I've never imagined being applied to me and music.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

That I was able to cultivate a new and - and better relationship with the piano at all. And now like, I have that piano in my apartment.

Harvey:

Yeah. Actually, like five feet behind me, probably.

Pen:

Yeah, there's not a ton of room, but it's-it's a pretty nice one. It's - it's like, fairly old, but it works real well. Electric piano, you can't mess it up by transporting it. No strings.

Harvey:

It's a piano!

Pen:

It's a piano! And so now, when I'm feeling some kinds of emotions. Like, any kind of intense emotion, but also, there are some, like, categories, and especially when it has to do with specific kinds of trauma, especially my childhood trauma, I play piano about it. Like I.... I'll get this kind of itch, and I'll sit down, and I'll just play piano about it. And it doesn't always - it usually doesn't even matter what song I'm playing. It's just playing lets me experience it and kind of process it...

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

...in a very particular way. And I think part of the reason that it's so helpful is because playing the piano, I learned at such a fundamental point in my life.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

So legitimately, you know, kind of - to not just tell the story of some of Pen's childhood trauma, but to tie it back to recovery, it's.... this thing that was fundamental to the trauma in the first place has also become such an incredibly useful tool in recovery. And that feeling is... like, that's not easy. It's - it's not easy to get to that point with something that you have such intense associations with.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

Because my piano lessons were really, really, really bad. They were bad. It was bad as a kid.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

And now - and like, it wasn't super easy. Like I was, for quite a while after I started playing again, I was super sensitive to any kind of criticism. And that's, you know, complicated too, and I had some breakdowns about it. But now, I'm - I'm at this point where, like, I had a conversation with my grandmother about brought up some really, really incredibly intense things on the generational trauma of my family, and I played piano about it, and it helped. And that's something I never could have imagined happening. It's - it's a... recovery looks - it so rarely, I think, looks like what people expect it to look like.

Harvey:

It's a very holistic process, I think. I think people don't always think of recovery as reclamation, which is literally what it was for you.

Pen:

And not just - it's - it's not even just the reclamation, because my... it's like - it is in some ways, because I can communicate and feel and talk with piano differently than any other way.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

And there's - there's a reclamation part of that, and there's also a kind of re-experiencing. It's like reaching out a hand to kid me, and getting to, like, reconnect those parts of myself. And like, using it to process emotions now helps me process the trauma itself, which just then goes on forward.

Harvey:

Yeah. That's really powerful stuff, Pen.

Pen:

Thank you. It's - I think about it.

Harvey:

Yeah, I can tell. And it sounds like that's become a really important coping skill for you.

Pen:

That's - yeah, that feels like - like that tangent maybe went on a bit. That's my - that was, like, the first thing I thought of when you brought up recovery.

Harvey:

And it was a good conversation.

Pen:

Oh, thank you. Do you - let's - hey.

Harvey:

Yeah!

Pen:

Recovery.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

Harvey.

Harvey:

Yeah, my recovery. And that's a that's an interesting subject because I don't think I always recognize it. But the truth is I actually have like, really severe mental health issues when I really think about it.

Pen:

Yeah...

Harvey:

Like, I... and you know, not to put a judgment call on that, but it's not severe in the sense of like, I don't experience psychosis, I don't experience delusions. I've experienced psychosis once in my life, and it was because of weed. [Laughing] It was because I got too high. But you know...

Pen:

Wasn't that in a Walmart parking lot?

Harvey:

Yes.

Pen:

That's, uh... that feels like the right place to experience it.

Harvey:

Yeah. Still dating the guy, too. He's wonderful. But, you know, so I don't have - I don't have those kinds of problems. And that's, you know, that's not necessarily to create a hierarchy, or that like, "Oh, those people,"they're just not the issues I have. It's more that I have some of the more, quote unquote, run - run-of-the-mill disorders like depression and anxiety, but they're really bad.

Pen:

Accurate.

Harvey:

I've - I've mentioned, I think, on this show a couple of times that I've been told by several clinicians that I have some of the worst anxiety they've ever seen, which is validating and extremely painful.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

Mostly validating, I'll be honest. And my depression ranges from moderate to severe, depending on how I'm doing and what's happening. But there's a couple things that go into that. And it's... I'm chronically depressed. That's literally the definition of the disorder that I have. I'm just depressed pretty much all of the time, even when things are okay. And the really tricky part of that is I'm chronically suicidal.

Pen:

Mm-hmm.

Harvey:

And the tricky thing about that is, well...

Pen:

I mean, kind of all of it.

Harvey:

Yeah, I mean, when you're thinking about - in some way or another, I am usually thinking about suicide in some way. And I won't get too into this, because I don't want to spend this entire segment talking about my suicidality. But...

Pen:

That doesn't seem like it'd be nice for you.

Harvey:

I wouldn't say I'm suicidal all the time, because I'm not. But it's always one of those things that's on the back of my mind. So that gives you some context for the severity. The other thing, too, is I have some pretty substantial issues with substance use. I am, straight up, an alcoholic. And I'm at a point now where I've recovered enough, actually, and I'll get into that, to drink again. And I only drink socially at this point. Thankfully, I never got into hard drugs. I'm really glad that I never ended up there because I think I would have been in a much rougher spot. And there was also a period of time, about a year and a half, two years that I was smoking cigarettes, and then the smoking age changed to 21, and I was 19. So straight up, I was forced to stop smoking because I couldn't get cigarettes anymore, because I had friends who loved me that wouldn't buy them for me. So the - the nicotine withdrawals were rough, but I lived. So all of this to say, like, I don't talk about this a lot, because - and I think there's a level of shame for me. Because this is the side of my mental health issues that's ugly. And that's socially unacceptable. And it's the things that make people cringe and wince. And it makes me cringe and wins, because I know... I know that it's bad. And, you know, I've been in and out of therapy since I was five. I've been on medication for... gosh, two and a half years? For my mental health? And there are still so many things that I'm really struggling to find my way out of. Pen, I know you've been really worried about me lately because of some of the - heh - just the symptoms I've been exhibiting. And so for me, the thing that I've learned about recovery, from my own experiences, is that recovery is so not linear. It's... I don't even know if I would call it a process. Recovery is a lot of things. I think it really goes back and forth. For me, like, I go into these periods of remission, I think when we started the podcast, I was actually doing really well. And currently, I would say I'm doing very poorly. And, you know, so I go into these periods of remission, where I'm doing really well. And then I go into these periods where I'm really severely depressed again. And you know, I have to keep certain household objects away from me because I don't feel safe. And so I've certainly learned that it's not linear. That sometimes recovery means that I'm going to fall backwards. And there are days where I'm going to feel like garbage. And sometimes there are going to be weeks where I'm going to feel like garbage. But then I have to put it into perspective, right? I need to look at that and recognize that, if I was this level of depressed in 2019...

Pen:

Ooh.

Harvey:

...I might not be alive.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

I've mentioned before, again, on the show that 2019 was probably the lowest point in my life. And yeah, I think if I were dealing with this level of depression, then I do seriously think that I might have done something. And I know that's really heavy. But I - that's one component of recovery, is kind of looking at yourself and going"Well, I'm not doing well, but I'm alive."

Pen:

Yeah. I mean, better than before is something significant.

Harvey:

It's - it's progress. It might be progress after stumbling backwards several times, but it's progress nonetheless. And then there's plenty of other elements of recovery for me, too. I have a better relationship with alcohol, for example. I can drink without feeling like I'm out of control. And honestly, some of that is antidepressants. Because one drink feels like three.

Pen:

Yep!

Harvey:

So I just stop drinking a lot sooner, because my tolerance is shot. Thanks, SSRIs. And I think too, I mean, I haven't touched a cigarette in several years at this point. Not since 2019. Actually, it's been a long time.

Pen:

Yeah, that's - that seems good. Pretty strictly good.

Harvey:

So you know, this is all... I think recovery for me is recognizing that it's okay that I'm not doing okay. And I think a lot of it has to be letting go of that

Pen:

Yes. shame. Yes.

Harvey:

I mentioned earlier that there was there's a lot of shame for me around some of my mental health issues, because they are some of the less palatable ones, particularly substance use. I think that's when it gets really heavily stigmatized.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

And yeah, it doesn't feel great to say, :Hey, yeah, I'm a 22 year old alcoholic." But this is just where I'm at.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

There are a lot of reasons that I'm here. Some of it is genetic factors. Alcoholism runs in my family. Mental health issues run in my family, and I'm also traumatized.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

And these are all things that just lead to struggling, right? And I'm still here.

Pen:

Yes.

Harvey:

I still get up in the morning, and I still find meaning in my life. That didn't al - that wasn't always true. So that kind of has to be recovery. I don't know what else it would be.

Pen:

I... this is something that I talked about with my therapist. Like, I think last month, maybe, is... I mean, I keep saying in sessions like,"Yeah, I'm doing okay. Got some low level depression that's just there," and you can only say that so many times before you realize you've said it every time.

Harvey:

Yeah. And you're like, ooh.

Pen:

And I thought about it. And I was like, okay, so these depressive swings keep happening, and they're keeping things that are really difficult for me to do, like the dishes, or cleaning my room, or feeding myself.

Harvey:

Vibes.

Pen:

Et cetera. But I keep saying I'm fine, too, or like, it's not like it used to be. And maybe the goal isn't to not experience these low level depressive spells ever. Maybe the goal is to just manage them...

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

...instead of just making it be gone.

Harvey:

That's real.

Pen:

Like, being better than what I used to be? Maybe that's enough. It's definitely recovery.

Harvey:

That's - that's another thing. Recovery - I think one of the things that it is, if we're just - if this episode is just turning into creating a working definition - recovery... oh, schnickies, I lost the thought.

Pen:

No!

Harvey:

Recovery is relative.

Pen:

Yes.

Harvey:

Recovery changes. It involves moving the goalposts constantly. You know, in periods of time where I'm doing better, it might be, hey, here's this big life goal that I want to achieve. Let's work on that. In periods like right now, where I'm really not doing okay, it looks more like, hey, let's not relapse.

Pen:

Yeah. Yeah. And that's... yeah, that's actually something that in the earlier stages of hello, COVID, I realigned my definition of, like - of my- my goal, pretty much every day, and

just shot it down to:

getting through the day is enough.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

That is all the work that I expect of myself.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

And I didn't hardcore relapse. I had some relapses, but not hardcore. And I didn't die.

Harvey:

You didn't, you're still here. And I'm so glad you are.

Pen:

So am I! I'm into that. And, you know, during a period like that, that's enough, sometimes. That's - that's what you being okay can look like.

Harvey:

This is... I think, if I'm summing up my feelings-

Pen:

Please, yes.

Harvey:

This is actually reminding me of something. Recovery, for me, is about hope, too. And I mentioned, I'll kind of bring this back in by saying, do you remember that time - gosh, it probably would have been my freshman year of college- so your junior year, and there was that rally on our campus for trans rights.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

And there was this really emotional period where we had just gotten done reading the names of people who, uh, had been murdered.

Pen:

Yes.

Harvey:

And following that, one of the individuals facilitating this event played a song. And it was "26" by Paramore. I still remember that, really vividly. I remember it was cold. It was, I think, January or February. So it's cold. And you and I are standing out there with a bunch of other trans people and our allies. And I'm on the verge of tears listening to the song, holding your hand, kind of paying attention to the warmth. And I listened to that song on repeat when I got home. And it's just - it stays in my head,"Hold on to hope if you got it," that sort of thing. And that experience stuck with me. And when the going gets tough, that's actually one of those things that I think back to. That I think back to - that I think back to this rally that a lot of people might have forgotten about. And I think back to "26" by Paramore. And for me, that's some of what recovery is. It's holding on to hope. It's finding hope, you know? Kind of going be-beyond the, "if you got it," but making it so you got it...

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

...because I don't have a choice. If I want to recover, if I want to keep going, I got to hold on to hope. And the good news is I actually - I have a lot to live for at this point.

Pen:

That is good news.

Harvey:

Way too much to throw away.

Pen:

That's beautiful, Harvey.

Harvey:

Aw, shucks, thank you.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

I'm shocked I was able to be that coherent while playing Tetris on my phone.

Pen:

Autism!

Harvey:

Something, something... There's a word for thatm ut I can't remember it. I forgor.

Pen:

You forgor.

Harvey:

I forgor. I don't rember.

Pen:

You don't rember.

Harvey:

But yeah, I think recovery for me is hope. It's recognizing that I'm - that I'm not done. I am far from done. I might never be done. I'm probably going to continue to hurt and there are going to be times where I'm doing really well, and I'm going to fall back down again. And I just have to recognize that even if things suck - if they suck so bad, which they do right now - there's still something.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

That there's a lot to keep pushing for.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

So I'm wondering if you have any final thoughts before we really wrap up.

Pen:

I think, in an attempt to try and tie things together...

Harvey:

I feel like I was relevant!

Pen:

You were! You absolutely were. I'm saying that mine was less...

Harvey:

Oh, hush.

Pen:

...like right on the dot. You know me, Harvey, I'm like this.

Harvey:

I'm pulling a gun. I'm pointing a gun at you, and I am telling you-

Pen:

You're playing Tetris on your phone.

Harvey:

Shut up! I'm telling you to be nice to yourself. I'm trying to sell the image. Nobody can see us! God!

Pen:

They're playing Tetris on their phone. Well, actually, kind of related to that, recovery, I think, especially in different - I think there are stages to it.

Harvey:

Of course.

Pen:

Or, you know what? I think there's checkpoints in recovery.

Harvey:

Hey, I like that! I like checkpoints.

Pen:

Thank you. Because I think stages - it implies you're going to stay within a certain range.

Harvey:

And you're just not.

Pen:

No. But like, I hit the recovery checkpoint of, I don't want to die anymore. I hit the recovery checkpoint of, I am no longer doing some of these harmful things. I hit the recovery checkpoint of learning how to forgive myself, and allow myself to just do things. And I think that's been one of the most significant for me. And that's like, one of the very, very big recovery checkpoints that I hit, was forgiving myself and allowing myself to be imperfect and mentally ill and disabled. But not to, like, hate myself for having executive dysfunction.

Harvey:

You're meeting yourself where you're at.

Pen:

Yes! Which I think is very important, and a difficult thing to do.

Harvey:

Especially in an inherently ableist society where that exact thing is discouraged.

Pen:

Yes.

Harvey:

And bad. And you should just strive to be normal.

Pen:

And the kind of things that can help, or like, you know, when you've reached certain points, then you're able to engage with other things. What I'm trying to say is, when I was self-harming multiple times a week, I wouldn't have been able to play the piano.

Harvey:

Right. And now you can, and it's not out of a sense of obligation, it's for your well-being.

Pen:

Yes. And so sometimes, you can hit these points, and it's like, okay, you have that now. You - you have done that. It doesn't mean everything's going to be easy. It doesn't mean I never relapse, or I never deal with other things. It means I can give myself a bit more slack, and that can free up doing other things like... recovery, for me, has looked a lot like accepting myself, and a lot like finding meaning and finding joy in things that I couldn't before. Guess what, Harvey? And this will not make sense to a lot of our listeners, I like scavenger hunts.

Harvey:

Oh, wow.

Pen:

And puzzles.

Harvey:

Yeah, that's... for those of you who lack the context, that's a big deal.

Pen:

Yeah, those used to be extreme, extreme, major trauma triggers for me. I can - I play the piano, because I'm experiencing intense, intense emotions. I like doing puzzles. Those are things that hurt me so much as a kid. And if I hadn't reached certain checkpoints, if I hadn't accepted certain things about myself, I couldn't be working on my recovery with these things that seem... like they shouldn't be part of it. Or like, this isn't how you make your mental health better! You don't do a puzzle about that. You don't play Homestuck piano.

Harvey:

[Laughing] You don't have to call yourself out like that.

Pen:

Yes, I did. did. You don't have to do that. That's not how you feel better. And it's like, actually, sometimes it is.

Harvey:

So what's your favorite Homestuck song to play on the piano?

Pen:

Showtime's the easiest, because it's the one that's actually made for piano.

Harvey:

That's a good choice.

Pen:

But if I fudge around and you know, adapt a lot of things, Derse Dreamers is really - it can be fun.

Harvey:

I respect that.

Pen:

I have to change it a lot. I have to do that for a lot of songs. I have small hands. That's bad for piano playing.

Harvey:

Unfortunate. You know, I think I'm - I think that's the crux for me. It's not just finding meaning, but finding joy. You saying finding joy really resonates with me.

Pen:

Finding joy, and... one of my favorite quotes of all time, is you've got to choose joy. How do you - how do you find - and I'm paraphrasing - how do you - how do you find joy? You choose it. You choose to find joy in other people, and the things that you do, because at the end of the day, that's all you've got.

Harvey:

That's what the Wahoo! Moment is.

Pen:

Yeah. It's - you have to find it. You have to choose it. Sometimes it doesn't look the way that you or other people expect, but at the end of the day, that's what you got.

Harvey:

It's yours.

Pen:

It is!

Harvey:

Hold on to hope if you got it.

Pen:

Hold onto hope...

Harvey:

....if you got it.

Pen:

This is Pen-Harvey karaoke hour.

Harvey:

And the other part of that lyric is, don't let it go for nobody.

Pen:

No, don't! Do things for yourself. Love y- even if you can't love yourself yet, don't - don't begrudge yourself hope.

Harvey:

Yeah. I think that's a lovely note to end on. So, stick around for just a few more moments, and we'll tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is run. Good episode, Pen.

Pen:

Yeah, good job Harvey![Clapping]

Harvey:

Beyond introspection is an independently run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at BYNDpodcast. Or you can email us at beyonddot—that's D O T— podcast@gmail.com. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description. Got feedback for us? Feel free to reach out on social media or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.