Beyond Introspection: A Podcast About Neurodivergence & Identity

Neurodivergent Pride

• Season 3 • Episode 9

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Harvey and Pen discuss what it means to be proud of neurodivergence, both on a personal and societal level. Also, it's the two-year anniversary of Beyond Introspection!

Featuring: Podcast origin story; The different types of pride and where they come from; Society hurts us, but we've got teeth; A hard won high opinion; Is it pride or is it a refusal to be ashamed?; It's hard to accept yourself, but wow, getting society to do it is a whole other level; Listen to neurodivergent people!; Hey, I'm proud of you. (Checkmate!)


USA Suicide Prevention:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

Crisis Textline (both SMS and What'sApp friendly):
https://www.crisistextline.org/

International Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines

Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
https://translifeline.org/

Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People (including text and online chat options):
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/get-help/




Pen:

Hey everybody, welcome to Beyond intersection, a podcast about mental health, neurodivergence and how it impacts literally every aspect of our lives.

Harvey:

All of them.

Pen:

I'm Pen.

Harvey:

And I'm Harvey.

Pen:

And we keep taking breaks a little bit. But you know what? That's because we live our lives, and we're doing our best.

Harvey:

For better or for worse, we are adults. And that means that we are very busy always.

Pen:

Also, we both just moved.

Harvey:

Yeah, like, around probably within what, two weeks of each other?

Pen:

Yep.

Harvey:

Something like that.

Pen:

And I've been depressed.

Harvey:

Me too!

Pen:

Wow!

Harvey & Pen:

Air high five.[Laughter]

Pen:

Yeah, but this is... we're recording in July, but it's gonna come out in August, which will be the two-year anniversary of doing this podcast.

Harvey:

God, that's so weird.

Pen:

It's... it's extremely weird. It's extremely weird.

Harvey:

And cool.

Pen:

It is neat! It's - it is weird, and it is neat, and it is cool. Yeah.

Harvey:

And so today, what we kind of want to do in honor of our two-year anniversary, is we want to, um... kind of talk about neurodivergence and pride, which was part of kind of the major crux of what started this podcast. That just as a general theme, I think.

Pen:

Yeah, yeah. It's... to kind of touch on that, like, back when I - when I first was like,"Hey, Harvey, do you want to do a podcast with me?"

Harvey:

And I said, "Sure."

Pen:

There were a few things that really sparked it. But the... what sparked you wanting to do it on neurodivergence was kind of twofold. One was, well, a little bit more. One was that I was doing... I'd been doing like a lot of activism work with queer identity, and also studying a lot of queer stuff. And frankly, I was kind of sick of that being everything for me, so I wanted to do something that wasn't about my queerness for once. Though, obviously, it impacts neuro divergence and neurodivergence impacts it. That's just how things work. Intersectionality!

Harvey:

Woo!

Pen:

Woo! But the... what really- there was a reading that I did, actually for one of my queer studies classes, by an author, and I've mentioned this before, M. Remy Yergeau. Yeah, yes. And they[inaudible] they are autistic

Harvey:

Ahh. and wrote in an extremely neat piece, a few really good things, and what - it was the first time that I'd really thought about being neurodivergent and proud, was - that was - that was in part of their piece, and it was a really compelling thoughts. And that was one of the things that I brought up with Harvey, I think way back. In 2020.

Pen:

In 20... ugh, no.

Harvey:

Horrid.

Pen:

Yeah, so that is... that's kind of, like, what we're circling back around to, is... is that concept that sparked this podcast, and also last month was queer Pride Month, and...

Harvey:

That was fun.

Pen:

Now it's queer wrath month. Cishet people, hide yourselves. I have teeth and I will use them. Oh, I didn't see... It's probably because I'm not on social media anymore, but I didn't see anyone making jokes about how it was also... was Honda Accord sale month? That's the...

Harvey:

[Laughter] What?!

Pen:

No like how - like June is... is queer Pride Month, and for cishet people, it's like, happy Honda Accord sale - I'll find the reference.

Harvey:

You know, before we get ahead of ourselves, though: Pen.

Pen:

Oh, yes, Harvey.

Harvey:

Tell me...

Pen:

Harvey!

Harvey:

...about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week!

Pen:

Of the existence.

Harvey:

Of the existence since the last time we recorded.

Pen:

Yes, my Wahoo! - Wahoo! It's actually... it's kind of related a little bit to some of the things [inaudible]. But I have been rereading a bit series that I was really into while I was in high school. That's all I'm gonna say because I don't want to think more about time and age.

Harvey:

That's fair.

Pen:

But it was, you know, a while ago, the Mortal Instruments series by Cassandra Clare. And Infernal Devices. Folks aren't really into - no one who's listening for this would care about that.

Harvey:

I was going to say, I have no idea what this is.

Pen:

Yeah, it's not - it's not gonna be relevant for people. But one, it's been nice to, you know, reread some books that I haven't read in a while. Two, there's actually some - some newer ones about one of - a couple of the characters I actually really, really liked. And they're queer, too.

Harvey:

Oh!

Pen:

Yeah, so that was - that was nice. And it was... it was really nice to read something new for the first time in a while, but like, still attached to something I cared about. And it was also the first time in a while that I've read a book and been like, what? What?! What is this plot twist? Why would you...? Man, that's a - that's, like, a lot coming from you. You read quite a bit. I do. But it's mostly like fanfiction now. So it's not new stuff.

Harvey:

Fanfiction is good.

Pen:

Oh, it's great. And it's like, such a unique medium, and I have, like, so much for it. But there's not twists in the same way.

Harvey:

Sure, because it's already an established thing.

Pen:

But yeah, it was... actually, one of the books by her was the first one I ever threw across the room.

Harvey:

Oh!

Pen:

Also, one of them was the first that I ever pre-ordered because I was that excited about it coming out.

Harvey:

Was this the same one that you threw across the room?

Pen:

No, but that one did make me cry and literally shout at least once.

Harvey:

Oh, man.

Pen:

Which was pretty intense for me.

Harvey:

I was gonna say, shoot.

Pen:

Yeah, yeah, it's... they're- they're something else. But there's one specific character who I'm going to reference a little bit later when it comes to pride, Magnus Bane, who is a Warlock and bisexual.

Harvey:

Oh!

Pen:

And also Indonesian, not white, which is great. But I've always been very compelled by... by Magnus Bane.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

Was related to...

Harvey:

Also such a name. I like it.

Pen:

Isn't it?! It's so cool. Anyway. Harvey, what's your Wahoo! Moment of our Existence?

Harvey:

Our existence, a.k.a.-

Pen:

Since the last time we talked.

Harvey:

Yeah, this one's gonna be probably a little bit wack. The last time we recorded, I was dating a person that I am no longer dating. And that breakup has proven to be actually really healthy and good for me.

Pen:

Good! Yes!

Harvey:

And oh, man. If he listens to this episode, this is probably going to sting. But yeah, I mean, honestly, I'm just happier. And I'm really, really grateful for that.

Pen:

Yeah, I know that was really hard for you, but it definitely, I think... definitely an improvement for your life overall. Also, if he's listening to this, like, you drew boundaries that's on him.

Harvey:

That's fair.

Pen:

Yeah, that's... yeah. I'm happy for you, buddy.

Harvey:

Ah, well, thank you.

Pen:

Even in our complications there is - there is good to be found even in the pain.

Harvey:

That's true. Yeah.

Pen:

Also, we briefly had to pause because the recording was being weird. I found the joke that I was... that I was thinking about. It was an old Tumblr."Happy Pride all my gay friends,

Harvey:

Oh, yeah. and happy Kia summer sales event told my straight friends." Kia summer sales event! Yeah, that sounds right.

Pen:

See, I don't know cars, because I'm not straight.

Harvey:

One of these days, we're gonna get accused of being, like, heterophobic or something.

Pen:

That would be - we'd have to have more of an audience to have that, and well...

Harvey:

Fair point.

Pen:

Take that, suckers, you're still listening to the podcast? Yeah, but we're gonna talk about pride - being proud, as - as neurodivergent people.

Harvey:

Tell me your thoughts Pen.

Pen:

I have so many thoughts.

Harvey:

I know this.

Pen:

Just in general. Well, I was thinking about it, and I've thought about it a lot, because that's... it's such a complicated thing, bBecause our neurodivergence is different than other aspects of our identity, which is kind of a not- nothing statement. Because that's like, yeah, that's just true. Good job, Pen.

Harvey:

But it's like, well, hang on, we've got more to say.

Pen:

Yeah. Like, when it comes to something like being nonbinary, which I am!

Harvey:

Wow!

Pen:

Then it's, like, this thing hurts me, but only because of society.

Harvey:

Right.

Pen:

It is, for me, just, like, a fact of myself, and I'm very proud of the steps that I've taken with it, you know?

Harvey:

Sure.

Pen:

And when it comes to queer pride, generally, it's kind of... like, there's that sense of movement, you know, with it, like, of community.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

Like, we are proud because we're told not to be.

Harvey:

Sure.

Pen:

And also because we're cool.

Harvey:

Yes. Absolutely.

Pen:

And so there's - there's that with my - with my bisexuality, and with being nonbinary, things like that, of the only reason this ever hurts me is because of external things. And my pride is me saying, I know this about myself and I refuse to not speak it and not... and - hurt myself by pretending just because of you.

Harvey:

You refuse to apologize for it, too.

Pen:

Yes, yes. And that's a really hard thing to do, to be proud like that. Like, you know, being nonbinary especially, having to correct pronouns constantly, because there's no such thing as going stealth when you're nonbinary.

Harvey:

Nope!

Pen:

Which is, uh, that part sucks! That part just sucks.

Harvey:

Yeah, yeah.

Pen:

But again, that's an external thing.

Harvey:

Sure.

Pen:

And, when I think about pride, there's - well, there's a

quote from Avatar:

The Last Airbender that I think about. Okay. Which is, "Pride is not the opposite of shame," or- "Shame is not the opposite of pride, but rather where it draws its source." And I think that that is... I... that is a perspective that I've kind of adopted with it. Like, being proud of something is refusing to be ashamed of it, but it's still coming from that, I think, largely external points, kind of. Like, if you are ashamed of something, it's because someone has made you feel as if you should be.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

Whether that's like, you know, moral judgments, or just society being fundamentally bad, sometimes.

Harvey:

It's just like that.

Pen:

It is just like that sometimes. And... so with - with pride in - in my queer identity, that has more to do with, like, the movement as a whole, and of me trying to hold that as a form of resilience. And there are movements. The MAD Pride movement, for example, that are based on like neurodivergence, and - and being proud of it, and refusing to be silenced. And I like that a lot. It also gets less attention.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

And so, being proud of neurodivergence is something that isn't remotely as, like, considered, or even just considered acceptable.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

And it's complicated, too, because my ADHD, which is the root of basically all of my neurodivergence. I still think my social anxiety has its own, like - its own little roots, because of how intense it is, comparatively.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

But my ADHD, like, the depression and anxiety suck a lot.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

And are exacerbated by it, and/or caused by it in the first place. And, there's... executive dysfunction, and just fundamental lack of dopamine. Those are so hard.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

But if I didn't have ADHD, I wouldn't be the same person, because it's just how I think it's the way that my mind is formed and shaped. It's like... there's the emotional dysregulation. And also, there's the way that my thoughts just race, and how that's not always a good thing, but also means I can make connections so quickly sometimes, and how it means I can't understand some things or there's just going to be a block and that block is going to lead to emotions I don't want to have and lashing out sometimes, but it also means I do understand some other things so much better and easier. And there is this endless well of creativity and passion that is just as real as the endless pit of hurt and despair.

Harvey:

Yeah, wow.

Pen:

And the way that Magnus Bane is connected to this. He's... I mean, neurodivergence isn't really talked about much, at least with him, and so it's not that, directly. It's... one of the books that I that I read, one of the new ones, had a line

from his perspective:

"He had a hard one high opinion of himself." And in the context of that part, it was specifically about... it's not about not seeing your faults, or thinking that you're perfect. Recognizing, knowing your lows, and your highs, and yourself, and really believing that you're not defined by your worst... it's about leaving the door open to change and newness and vulnerability, because even though it can hurt so much, it's also what makes life worthwhile. Seeing the good and the bad and still trying. And with Magnus specifically, it's... at that point in the book, it was about being in a moment, and a good moment, but knowing that someday it might be a bad memory that hurts. Or not even a bad memory, just a painful one.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

And knowing that the only thing you can really do is try to hope that it won't be, and how hard that is. And that hard one high opinion is about seeing all of those things of himself, and... and seeing that trying as so much more important than all of the pettiness or the... just- the bad parts.

Harvey:

Mhm.

Pen:

And how I would say - like, I really feel that... that line. That hard one high opinion of myself, because I do have a fairly high opinion of myself, and it is because I know myself. I know what my lowest low was like, and I know what my second lowest low was like, and I know what it's like when I hurt. I know what it's like when I lash out. I know what it's like for me to be the worst of myself. And I know what it's like for me to - for me to be the best of myself. And all of that is so fundamentally tied up in my neurodivergence, because when I'm at the lowest of my lows, that's when I'm the lowest in depression, and fear, and pain, and it's so hard to keep yourself open in those moments.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

And how do you decide if that's something you can be proud of? How do you decide if this thing that can hurt you, and can make this depression so hard, and can cause you to lash out at people, because you don't know how to regulate your own emotions, because you don't have the brain chemicals for it? How can you see that thing and be proud of it? And is it about being refused - about refusing to be ashamed of it? For me, it's not so much being proud of my ADHD, as it is accepting it. I lay the parts of me out in front of myself, and I accept them, and that is the most radical thing I can do. It is more radical than just being proud, consistently, for me.

Harvey:

Mm. In what way?

Pen:

Because it's not about not being ashamed. It's about knowing myself, and seeing myself and it's not.. and I'll talk about it, and I'll be open about it. And it's... I don't know if I can apply the word proud to it, because it's just fundamental to me.

Harvey:

Sure.

Pen:

I'm proud of myself for some of the things that I've done, but when it comes to just me, I don't think it's so much about pride, as it is that hard one high opinio. That seeing myself, and accepting myself, and saying, like, yeah, yeah, I know what you think of me. And I know how much my ADHD can hurt. And I know that I'm not supposed to talk about it. I know that I'm supposed to... if I manage to regulate my neuro divergence, that means I don't talk about it. That means that I present as normal as I can. And refusing to do that, because instead, I'm going to be myself. It's not quite pride for me, but it's, I think, functionally similar, especially to, like, the queer pride movement. And that's - that's a lot of things. That's a lot of - that's tough. But when I was, I mean, frankly, in the shower yesterday, it's what I was thinking about with like, am I proud? Am I proud of this?

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

So that's me. That's mine.

Harvey:

Yeah. That's... well, I get the feeling that my half of explaining my pride is gonna be a lot less... verbose isn't the word I'm looking for. Well-

Pen:

That's fair, though.

Harvey:

Well-spoken. I think mine's gonna pale in comparison a little bit, but you know what? That's fine.

Pen:

We're different people. And I mean, you know, I did a whole, like, speech about it, instead of having a more conversational thing. And, you know, pros and cons.

Harvey:

Pros and cons. That's very true. Yeah, I mean, this isn't a question - this is a question - I was about to say, this isn't something that I think about very much. That's not true. I haven't thought about it much in the context of this podcast. But I do think about from time to time, like, whether or not I'm proud, whether being autistic is something that I ought to be proud of. And, hm, you know, I think when we were starting this podcast, I think I was coming out this very much from a perspective of, I just want people to see me and recognize me, and understand that people like me are not fundamentally broken, or anything like that. It was - it's not assimilationist. because that isn't an assimilationist politic. Well... I mean, it errs on the side, because I'm... I'm

Pen:

Well... realizing that I think when I started, I kind of wanted this to be sort of a, hey, I'm just like you except with this one difference. And the thing is, this is something that we talked about a lot, that one of my things that I studied - by the way, I graduated college - one of the things that I studied in my undergrad was queer theory. I studied a lot of queer theory, and I got really into it. And I got really into this notion of sort of questioning what does it mean to be normal, quote, unquote? And what parts of yourself do you lose when you insist on being normal? I like that.

Harvey:

And that's something that I think about a lot, that, you know, like, what do I really want as a neurodivergent person? Do I want to be seen as everyone else? Or do I want to be seen in my difference, and respected for it, and celebrated for the person that I am, not in spite of, but because of my neurodivergence?

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

And this is why I'm not much of a proponent of, like, Autism Awareness Month, but more Autism Acceptance Month.

Pen:

Yes.

Harvey:

That I really do think that there needs to be this massive cultural paradigm shift in the way that neurodivergence is viewed. I don't talk about myself in a super positive light most of the time. I'm probably, and this is going to - be this is going to be counterintuitive, because it's going to be a not very humble thing to say, I think broad strokes, I'm sort of excessively humble, combined with having generally low self esteem.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

So I'm reluctant to say anything especially positive about myself, but I'm really smart.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

I'm really, really, really smart, and I have important things to say.

Pen:

Yeah!

Harvey:

And that's in part, because of the way that my autism has me focus on the things that I care about. I get so into a topic, and I will make myself understand every little part of it until I move on to the next thing. And sometimes it's Stardew Valley, other times it's queer theory and how that changes, interrupts, facilitates, trans people's ability to be resilient, which is what I did my thesis on. And...

Pen:

That's cool.

Harvey:

I should send you that paper.

Pen:

I would love to read that paper.

Harvey:

Yeah, I'm gonna, like, email it to you when this episode's over. But, um... so, I don't think I'm at the point yet where I'm proud. I think proud is a strong word. I'm now less concerned about people just respecting me. I don't feel like I need to fight for acceptance. I feel like I get to chastise people until they accept me, because if they don't, well, that sounds like a them problem.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

That's - that's not something that I need to carry on my shoulders. That's not my burden. And honestly, for me, some of this loops back around to transmedicalist circles. And for anybody who's not familiar, the concept of transmedicalism is the idea that you need gender dysphoria to be trans. And that's not only scientifically incorrect if you look at the psychological evidence for it, but it's also very western-centric, very white-centric, ahistorical, as well.

Pen:

I also personally find it, like... that's sort of like, not-statement because if you - if we define gender dysphoria as...

Harvey:

Distress related to gender.

Pen:

As like, not... as like, yeah, like, any distress related to being perceived or feeling like the gender you were assigned at birth, that's also just what being trans is.

Harvey:

Yeah, like...

Pen:

It's just not being cis.

Harvey:

It's a - it's a non argument.

Pen:

It's the same thing.

Harvey:

But if I had to pick one side, I would say you don't need dysphoria. In any case, one of the things that's very common in circles like these is an assimilation as politic. And there's a lot of... and this is coming from a real place of pain, that there's this really strong thing around like, "I wish other trans people," and they're especially talking about gender non-conforming and nonbinary trans people who are like, "I wish that trans people would just be normal because they're the reason that we are not accepted by society." Which is just absurd.

Pen:

It's a - it's a fundamentally inaccurate argument.

Harvey:

But if you're marginalized, you've probably heard that in other situations, and maybe you felt it a little bit.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

That's why I was a transmed when I was, like, 16. It was because I was in a deep - and that's not to excuse the things that I said or did, because they weren't okay. But I was coming from a deep place of pain, and I wasn't being accepted. My own family was shunning me to an extent. And so God, of course, I was reaching for literally any way for people to just give me a sliver of humanity.

Pen:

I think the only place those kinds of perspectives can come from is pain and fear.

Harvey:

Yeah. And so I think when we started this podcast, I was - I was still at least a little bit in denial about being autistic. I think I knew, but I didn't really want it to be true, because it complicated my life quite a bit.

Pen:

Yeah. What, like being nonbinary?

Harvey:

Oh, yeah! Or gay, or disabled...

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

So on and so forth. So I think when we started this podcast, I think that's sort of the place that I was at, not to the extent of, "I wish other autistic people would just be normal." Because what? No, that's bonkers. But I think I was coming from that place of pain of just wanting people to give me my humanity, and feeling like it was my responsibility to coax that out. And at least now, I've progressed to the point where I don't feel that way. That I feel like the point of this podcast, for me, is not to make people accept me, but to provide the neurodivergent perspective that is almost never considered...

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

...in the way that it should be, because we have important insight on things.

Pen:

Yeah.

Harvey:

Especially the way that the world is just fundamentally set up to punch down and make people feel small. Even neurotypical people.

Pen:

Oh, yeah.

Harvey:

And all of this is tied into capitalism.

Pen:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not to be a socialist, but also...

Harvey:

But also, if you're not profitable, then you are considered completely and utterly useless.

Pen:

Worse than useless. Detrimental. Something to be trimmed away.

Harvey:

And so, I don't think I'm proud yet. But I think I'm getting closer. I think this is a step closer to pride. And I mean, gosh, queer - queer pride took me a long time, too. So maybe that this is maybe this is just my process of developing neurodivergence pride.

Pen:

Well, you know, what, Harvey?

Harvey:

What's that?

Pen:

I'm proud of you.

Harvey:

Oh!

Pen:

I'm proud of... because I've seen you on this particular journey.

Harvey:

You've known me since I was 18. I'm 22 now.

Pen:

I have known you the entire time that you have, like, out loud said, "I think I might be autistic." Like, that slow realization, which, you know, I might have hap- like, might have started before we met, in like...

Harvey:

The - kind of the inklings were in my brain that something was different about me, but I think I refused to label it autism.

Pen:

I have known you since you started saying at least to other people, "I think this might be an autism moment in my brain." And... and I've also known you, as your your journey through anxiety has really majorly shifted.

Harvey:

Yeah. Thanks, medication.

Pen:

Seriously. But seeing you go from like, "Well, I don't

know if I'm autistic," to :

I don't know if I really count as autistic if I'm not getting a diagnosis," and, "I don't know if I want a diagnosis, but also, if I don't get a diagnosis, am I really autistic?" To like, just saying, "I am autistic." Claiming that as your own and not needing someone else to say it for you. All of that, and I'm proud of you. Because it's not easy to do any of that. It's not because we're not supposed to. We aren't supposed to. Never.

Harvey:

We're not supposed to take this for ourselves.

Pen:

Never!

Harvey:

That neurodivergence is- is - is posited as this thing that is bestowed upon you by the great Gods of Psychiatry.

Pen:

Who I really cannot stress enough, I'm so annoyed by.

Harvey:

Yeah. And if it's... if it's not a death sentence, it's... I mean, it feels like you have been - what been bestowed upon you is a disability. But that doesn't - that disability doesn't start when you receive your diagnosis. If anything, receiving that diagnosis, or just understanding that you fit into a particular label, because diagnosis is not all that important. Having that language makes it make sense. And then you can find ways to work around it. And with it.

Pen:

Yes, yes! With it. It - when we are told, hey, this is the way that you are neurodivergent. And I really... I want to stress that a lot of this is specifically about neurodivergence in terms of these things that are with us since birth. These things that are with us always. These these chronic things. These incurable things. And ADHD and autism are, I think, like, kind of the classic ones there. I'm not talking about my depression. I'm not talking about my social anxiety, those just suck.

Harvey:

Other things - but just as reference, other things that sometimes count is neurodivergence, OCD counts as neurodivergence, a lot of psychotic disorders, such as schizophrenia. Obviously, we can't speak on those, because neither of us have those to our knowledge. But there are other kinds of neurodivergence that aren't just ours.

Pen:

Yes, absolutely.

Harvey:

But it's those things that fundamentally change the way that your brain works.

Pen:

And that's... it's complicated. And that complication, like when we get the diagnosis, it's supposed - it is a professional saying, here's what's wrong with you.

Harvey:

Pretty much.

Pen:

Or to our guardians, here's what's wrong with your kid. And that's how it's posited, and that's how it's presented. And that's like... that's why I can totally be with, like, the MAD pride movement and things like that, because the point of it is, screw you. It's... you don't get to say how I am and how I feel about this. You don't get to silence me. You don't get to kill me anymore. You don't get to electrocute my brain, just because you hate me, just because this is wrong to you. And with that, in an activist sense, I am unashamedly proud of being neurodivergent, and no one can ever silence me on that.

Harvey:

Yeah.

Pen:

But then from that personal perspective, it's more complicated than pride. Like this is, you know, I can be proud of, like, some fanfiction, I wrote, but how do I figure out if I'm proud of a thing that hurts me and heals me and just is me.

Harvey:

You know, Pen, I'm proud of you, too.

Pen:

Aww!

Harvey:

See? You understand how it feels now! Checkmate.

Pen:

It's - that's sweet.

Harvey:

It's, um... Yeah, I mean, I've also known you for the past four years. We met at the same time. We've told that story before. Yes, I...

Pen:

Sorry, the phrase, "We met at the same time," is really funny

Harvey:

It was meant to be funny.

Pen:

Good.

Harvey:

Kind of along the lines of, "I was born and incredibly young age." I know, at least as far as I can remember, I remember the ways in which this used to be a lot harder for you, that it was harder to accept the ways in which maybe sometimes you're neurodivergence led you to be unkind to people, or unkind to yourself, struggling to move through the world. And it's... if nothing else, at least from my perspective, it's nice to see you take that and go, maybe this isn't the best thing about me, and maybe this hurts me and other people, but it's me, and I'm not gonna get anywhere by beating down on myself for it. So I won't.

Pen:

That is.. that is exactly it. It's... thank you. It's nice to be seen. And that is - that is the thing for me. Like, I can't say - I think - I don't think I can say whether or not I am proud of my neurodivergence, but I can say that I've accepted it. And because it's a fundamental part of me, I would not be myself if I didn't have ADHD. It's part of how my brain is.

Harvey:

And it's part of you.

Pen:

And it's part of me! And I have accepted myself, and I've looked at all the parts of myself and I've decided, yeah, I like this one. And that means - that is the hard one high opinion. That is me looking at my ADHD and deciding because it's part of me, yeah. I like this one.

Harvey:

Yeah. You know, I - in my opinion, if we're - if we're keeping with the theme of radical self acceptance, which I am. And not just radical self acceptance, but radical self love, though, radical self acceptance is the first part of that, thereby, the first step to pride is self acceptance. And, hey, we're there. That's important.

Pen:

That's major.

Harvey:

So, I don't know, maybe we see how we're doing in about a year.

Pen:

Yeah. And this... I imagine there are, you know, other - other neurodivergent people listening to this, and maybe not knowing the answer to the question of whether they're proud of it, or maybe knowing the answer. And if that's no, that's you. We're not looking to change your mind.

Harvey:

No.

Pen:

And if the answer is yes, good for you.

Harvey:

Cool, join the club. Well, we're not quite there yet. We're - we're - we're filling out the paperwork, still.

Pen:

There's so many forms.

Harvey:

It's actually kind of ableist. I don't know what they were thinking.

Pen:

Observational humor. But wherever you are, and none of this is us trying to change anybody's mind, this is all just a perspective of it. And I think a very - a very important one. And I think we should talk - we should talk about neurodivergent pride, because we should talk about neurodivergence, and we should talk about it as something more than a harmful thing,

Harvey:

Because it's not exclusively.

Pen:

And that means we have to talk about the idea of loving it.

Harvey:

Not in spite of it, but loving it. And loving the way that it makes you feel, and loving the way that it changes you.

Pen:

The way that it is. If we're going to talk about neurodivergence as more than just harm, we have to talk about it as not just a theoretical positive but as a positive. And that I'll do proudly. Checkmate.

Harvey:

You know what, I think that is an excellent note to wrap this one up on. So, happy two years, Pen to our podcast relationship.

Pen:

I'm 24! [Laughter] Happy 2 years, Harvey.

Harvey:

Is that a reference to the Vine?

Pen:

That's a reference to the Vine.

Harvey:

Cool. Okay, stick around for just a few more moments, and hopefully for the next year, and we'll tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is made. Beyond introspection is an independently run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at BYNDpodcast. Or you can email us at beyonddot—that's D O T— podcast@gmail.com. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description. Got feedback for us? Feel free to reach out on social media or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.