Dating While Neurodivergent (Feat. Atlas Harveypartner)

Harvey, Pen, and a guest discuss the good, the bad, and the complicated when it comes to dating other neurodivergent people. 

Featuring: Special Musical Guest Cher; We're very sorry for using slang; Harvey has two hands and a polycule full of autism; Balancing love languages (aka what happens when you can't fix everything); "I just kind of assume that all of my loved ones have depression."; Implicit understanding is such a beautiful thing; Emotional labor and basic intimacy; Shoutout to our friend Dallas; In the end, we really do love what we have. 

Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People: 

https://translifeline.org/

USA Suicide Prevention: 

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

International Suicide Hotlines: 

https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines

Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People: 

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/


Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:

https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte

Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:

https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/

https://stopaapihate.org/

Resources for US Immigrants:

https://www.informedimmigrant.com/

Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:

https://immigrationjustice.us/

Transcript

Pen: 0:11

Hello everybody, and welcome to Beyond Introspection, a podcast about mental health, neurodivergence, and how it impacts literally every aspect of our lives.

Harvey: 0:19

All of them.

Pen: 0:21

Thank you, Harvey. I liked that one. I'm Pen.

Harvey: 0:23

And I'm Harvey.

Pen: 0:24

And we have a guest - special guest this episode...

Harvey: 0:28

Special musical guest star Cher. Just kidding. My boyfriend, Atlas.

Pen: 0:30

Yes.

Atlas: 0:31

Hello, I'm here.

Pen: 0:32

Yes.

Harvey: 0:33

That's Atlas.

Atlas: 0:33

It's me.

Pen: 0:34

Atlas, do you want to, uh - when we've had guests before, we've had them say, like, maybe a couple of things about themselves, pronouns, whatever you want to do.

Harvey: 0:43

It's your choice.

Atlas: 0:43

Oh, vibes. Okay. Um, I use they/he pronouns, and I'm an art history major, which is cool.

Pen: 0:49

That is cool.

Harvey: 0:50

That is.

Pen: 0:51

I like that.

Harvey: 0:51

I have a type. For reference, I don't think I've ever talked about this on the podcast, all of my partners are art students, or aspiring art students.

Pen: 1:00

It's... it's fun. It's a very... Harvey... art. I don't have a good joke.

Harvey: 1:06

That's okay.

Atlas: 1:07

Yeah.

Pen: 1:07

All right.

Harvey: 1:09

I don't know if you had more to say.

Atlas: 1:10

Nope. That's it. That's all. That's me. [Crosstalk]

Pen: 1:15

Yeah. So with - with our previous guest episodes, we've done things like talking about being Black with mental health.

Harvey: 1:22

Which, hey, we needed guests for that one, because we are white.

Pen: 1:25

Yeah, no, that would - that would have [inaudible]

Harvey: 1:27

God.

Pen: 1:27

That would have been such a bad idea. But instead, we, uh - we know, some really incredible folks who... who talked with us on that, or with Demetrea and the DSM, which was so fun.

Harvey: 1:38

What a good episode. And then your dad.

Pen: 1:40

My dad and genetics, so this might seem less obvious, because Atlas does not have necessarily bona fides for being Harvey's partner, other than just being, you know, cool.

Atlas: 1:52

Thanks.

Pen: 1:52

We like Atlas here.

Harvey: 1:53

We do.

Atlas: 1:54

Thank you.

Pen: 1:55

But what we're going to talk about today is being in a relationship when both of you - or all of you, as the case may be, are neurodivergent. Specifically, how it interacts with, like, burnout in relationships, and, like, giving a lot of yourself, which is a problem that all three of us have.

Atlas: 2:17

Yep.

Harvey: 2:18

You know, but also the ways in which it is good and nice.

Pen: 2:20

Yes, yeah. The... the, like, pros and cons, and - and things that help to be conscious of, which is something that, uh, wanted to pull Atlas in for, because Atlas has been really, really good for Harvey in that respect.

Harvey: 2:31

This is also a very last minute episode, we decided - well, not - topic. Last minute topic. We decided on it an hour ago.

Pen: 2:38

Yep. It was a good idea.

Atlas: 2:41

And I was like, Hey, can I be in the room? And then Pen was like...

Harvey: 2:43

"Do want to be on the episode?"

Atlas: 2:44

And I was like, yes.

Pen: 2:47

And I'm right about everything, as we just discussed. Yeah, we were talking about how you are the law. I am the law. Atlas called Harvey adorable, and Harvey was like, "Mmm... no."

Harvey: 2:56

I maintain that you haven't proven anything.

Pen: 2:58

I maintain that you didn't have a good argument besides,"No."

Atlas: 3:03

Yep.

Pen: 3:03

Which I can say, as a communication studies major, is not what an argument is.

Atlas: 3:10

And my argument was Pen is the law, and Pen agrees with me. And we are two individuals. Which also is not a good argument, but is better than,"No."

Harvey: 3:19

Whatever.

Atlas: 3:19

Hee hee.

Harvey: 3:21

But, before we get too, ahead of ourselves, Pen.

Pen: 3:24

Harvey.

Harvey: 3:25

Tell me about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week.

Pen: 3:29

Wahoo!

Harvey: 3:29

Yeah, there you go.

Pen: 3:30

Yeah, I actually thought about this earlier, believe it or not.

Harvey: 3:34

Yay!

Pen: 3:35

I can't believe it. Yeah, so - well, I mean, we say of the week. How about the month.

Harvey: 3:40

Oh, true. you're so right.

Pen: 3:43

Thank you. I know! Harvey's flipping me off. Yeah, my Wahoo! Moment is actually yesterday. I went with Harvey, and Atlas, and a mutual friend of ours, Dallas, to... there was a cool - it's called the Back Alley Market. Which, by the way, Atlas, when you were like, "Hey, Pen, do you want to come to the Back Alley Market?" I had no fu- I had no idea what you were talking about.

Atlas: 4:09

It sounds so shady, but it literally was in the middle of streets.

Pen: 4:14

Yeah, it was - it was just like a cool, like...

Atlas: 4:16

During the day.

Harvey: 4:17

[crosstalk] ... downtown area of our town.

Atlas: 4:19

A bunch of crafts and fun things.

Harvey: 4:21

Like thrift things.

Pen: 4:22

There was some goat's milk soap, you know, the kind of place where you have goat's milk soap.

Harvey: 4:26

I bought fancy olive oil.

Pen: 4:28

I also got some of the fancy olive oil because its dope.

Atlas: 4:31

Oh, yeah. I got a little garlic grinder thingy, and sexy lady candle.

Pen: 4:37

I didn't know that you got that! That's fun! But it was - it was really, really nice. It's the kind of thing that I liked going to, it was actually good weather for once in our Midwestern lives. But, yeah, it's, uh... it was a really, really nice day, even though I had to be a functional person before 9am for it.

Atlas: 4:57

Sorry about that, homie.

Pen: 4:58

No, no, it was fine. It was good for me in the end. But yeah, no, it was great. I've done social things lately, which is good for my brain.

Atlas: 5:04

Social things are important.

Pen: 5:06

Yeah, they're also incredibly difficult. Anyway, Harvey?

Harvey: 5:12

Yes?

Pen: 5:13

What's your Wahoo! Moment of the Month?

Harvey: 5:17

You say it in the exact same way every time and I am so tickled by it.

Atlas: 5:21

It's very adorable.

Pen: 5:21

Thank you. I'm neurodivergent.

Harvey: 5:22

You are. I'm so - God, you're so sexy for it.

Pen: 5:28

We were just talking yesterday about how Harvey and I fake flirt all the time, and then say constantly that we're not a couple in a way that sounds so much like just the over denial.

Atlas: 5:39

You're both gonna fake kiss and then commit to it at the same time, and then it's just gonna happen sometime.

Pen: 5:44

And now three people have talked about that on the podcast.

Harvey: 5:47

Anyway! So, gosh, I have a couple things I could draw on. I'm gonna steer away from-

Pen: 5:54

You're gonna draw? But it's an audio medium!

Harvey: 5:56

[Sarcastically] Haha. Funny.

Pen: 5:58

It was funny, thanks.

Harvey: 6:02

Derogatory. Funny, derogatory. No, um, anytime I draw on my partner's, Pen bullies me, which is fair.

Pen: 6:12

I don't bully you. I just point it out, usually because you point it out.

Harvey: 6:17

Anyway. I am about to graduate college in a week.

Pen: 6:22

Oh, my God, it's in a week?!

Harvey: 6:24

Yeah, I'm not going to my commencement, but I'm graduating, and I get my silly little diploma. My silly little piece of paper that certifies that I took 120 credit hours, and...

Atlas: 6:35

That's so many.

Harvey: 6:36

And unrelated to that, well, semi-related. I'm supposed to hear back about a job on Monday or maybe Tuesday, so I'll know whether or not I have money. And if I don't, well, we'll figure it out.

Pen: 6:49

Yeah, that's - that's a fair - that's a - that's a Wahoo?

Harvey: 6:54

Kinda. I'm excited to graduate college.

Pen: 6:57

Yeah, I'm excited for you. It's also weird and you need to stop aging.

Harvey: 7:01

It's, uh... it's - it's been a long road, and I'm - you've watched me the whole time.

Pen: 7:05

I have. I was just talking about that, actually, with, uh, with Dallas when we hung out on Friday.

Harvey: 7:11

Oh?

Pen: 7:12

How absolutely wild it was when I met you and Em, and you were freshmen, and I got to watch you and, like, your first semester of college and be like, oh... aw, guys, no, it's gonna be okay. No, that's gonna be like... aw, baby's first breakdowns during, like, midterms and finals. And it's like, oh, no, it's okay. You get used to it.

Harvey: 7:32

And I did!

Atlas: 7:33

The worst part of college and getting used to breakdowns.

Harvey: 7:35

And now I just cry a little bit. Atlas, do you have a Wahoo? We don't usually ask our guests, but I feel like we should. Do you have a Wahoo! Moment of the Month to share?

Atlas: 7:45

Well, yes, I do. Pen took mine, technically, but...

Pen: 7:49

You can say the same one.

Atlas: 7:50

I'm gonna make a new one up because there is multiple things. I was nominated and gifted a Art History award...

Pen: 8:01

Whoa!

Atlas: 8:02

...through my college. I was nominated by one of my professors, which means I got$500.

Pen: 8:07

Yo, dope!

Atlas: 8:08

It's great.

Harvey & Pen: 8:08

Yeah.

Atlas: 8:09

I will take free money.

Pen: 8:11

That's - that's rad! Congratulations!

Harvey: 8:13

And it's because you're very intelligent and very good at what you do.

Atlas: 8:15

Thank you.

Pen: 8:16

That is so swag. And Epic.

Atlas: 8:19

Yeah.

Pen: 8:19

It's swagepic.

Atlas: 8:20

I got the email, and I was like, "Oh!" That's the exact noise I made.

Pen: 8:24

I love that. I love that a lot.

Harvey: 8:27

I wasn't in the room, so I wouldn't know.

Atlas: 8:28

Yeah. I at least made it in my mind. I think it was probably in my dorm, and if I had done that out loud, Shelby, my roommate would have been like, "What - What are you doing?"

Harvey: 8:37

Why?

Atlas: 8:37

Why?

Harvey: 8:38

Why?

Pen: 8:38

Why have you done this? I did not ask for it.

Harvey: 8:42

Okay, you can tell that we're all neurodivergent, because we are trying so hard to stay on task.

Pen: 8:48

We're doing our best, and it's gonna be fun. This is a podcast by neurodivergent people.

Harvey: 8:53

It's our podcast, and we can do what we want!

Pen: 8:55

Folks who don't want to listen to neurodivergent people being neurodivergent, I don't... think this podcast is gonna work well for you. And I'm confused as to why - why you're listening to it, but you know what? Have fun, I guess.

Atlas: 9:10

Go off.

Pen: 9:12

Go... go get it, I guess.

Harvey: 9:14

Ooh, yeah, get it, I guess.

Pen: 9:15

Thank you, thank you. I forgot how it went, and I was going to do a cuss, but I didn't. Are you proud of me, Harvey ,for not cussing?

Harvey: 9:23

Yes.

Pen: 9:23

Thank you.

Atlas: 9:23

I've been concentrating so hard not to cuss.

Pen: 9:28

This is a family friendly show where we talk about making out with each other.

Harvey: 9:34

It's entirely so we don't get flagged as explicit.

Atlas: 9:37

That's dumb and homophobic.

Pen: 9:40

Things are... yeah. So, we are all in relationships. That sounds a little silly, given that I've - that we've introduced Atlas Harvey's partner. I am also in a relationship, is a more accurate and sensible way to put it.

Harvey: 9:55

But not with me or Atlas.

Pen: 9:56

No. No, no, my - but my girlfriend also has ADHD. Which,

Atlas: 9:57

With netiher of us. can I just say, called it!

Harvey: 10:03

And also composed the music. Composed and performed the music for this podcast.

Pen: 10:08

Which is so... ah, every time I listen to it while I'm doing the editing, I'm always like, "Dang, I wish I could listen to an album of this."

Atlas: 10:15

It's very good. I like it. I didn't know that - that she had done that, and Harvey told me that was her, and I was like, [gasping]

Pen: 10:21

Yes, it's - it's very good. She's very, very talented, very skilled.

Atlas: 10:25

Love her.

Pen: 10:26

So she has ADHD, and anxiety, and depression. Which...

Harvey: 10:31

Heyyy.

Pen: 10:31

Hi, I'm Pen, and I have ADHD.

Harvey: 10:35

And depression.

Pen: 10:36

And depressive things because of the ADHD. And - and, uh, intense social anxiety that's been debilitating for my entire life, but that's getting better. And Harvey, all of - all of your partners are also neurodivergent, yes?

Harvey: 10:53

Yeah, so that one's funny. I have five partners, because there's something wrong with me.

Atlas: 10:56

You're stopping. I'm cutting you off.

Pen: 10:57

Because you have five fingers on each hand?

Harvey: 10:59

I promise - yes, because I have five fingers on each hand.

Pen: 11:02

Harvey has two hands and five fingers.

Harvey: 11:04

Two fingers for each boyfriend.

Pen: 11:06

Dope!

Harvey: 11:07

So...

Pen: 11:08

It's math, so it makes sense and works out.

Harvey: 11:11

So, in any case, yeah. So... and yes, I am done. I promise. I'm done.

Atlas: 11:17

You're done. I'm cutting you off.

Harvey: 11:19

You're done.

Pen: 11:19

I am also cutting you off.

Atlas: 11:22

The only reason I'm okay is because it's me.

Harvey: 11:26

I mean, genuinely...

Pen: 11:26

I mean, low-key not a joke, though.

Atlas: 11:29

I am the newest addition.

Harvey: 11:31

It worked out. Yeah, we've been dating for just about a month. It worked out and we'll get into why in a bit. But yes, all of my partners, including me, are neurodivergent. I am the only one with ADHD, and my partner Maddox is the-

Pen: 11:42

No, autism!

Atlas: 11:43

You're the only one with autism.

Harvey: 11:45

I said I'm the only one without ADHD.

Pen: 11:47

You said with.

Harvey: 11:47

Oh, my bad. I'm the only one without ADHD. And my partner, Maddox, is the only one without autism. So...

Pen: 11:56

You, me, autism.

Harvey: 11:58

Autism. So, yeah, it - the whole polycule is, uh, neurodivergent. So neurodivergent.

Pen: 12:08

With a lot of overlap!

Atlas: 12:09

Every time you say neurodivergent, I always want to add, "And a minor," but no one is a minor.

Harvey: 12:14

No.

Pen: 12:14

No one. There are - no, there are no...

Atlas: 12:17

There are no minors.

Pen: 12:18

That would be...

Atlas: 12:18

It's just a funny joke.

Harvey: 12:19

Umm, I'm literally neurodivergent and an adult.

Pen: 12:24

If you're not chronically online, that's not gonna make any sense.

Atlas: 12:27

Nope.

Harvey: 12:28

But it's okay.

Pen: 12:29

We tell jokes sometimes. Sometimes we're in our 20s and I'm really sorry about that for all of our listeners.

Atlas: 12:34

Yeah.

Harvey: 12:34

Especially the ones that are over 35.

Atlas: 12:36

Sorry we're in our 20s.

Pen: 12:38

I'm sorry, mom.

Harvey: 12:40

So, yeah, and I've been dating neurodivergent people the entire time. I don't know...

Pen: 12:48

The whole time?

Harvey: 12:48

Huh?

Pen: 12:49

The whole time!

Harvey & Atlas: 12:50

The whole time!

Harvey: 12:51

The whole time. Because one of my exes Skylar, I don't know if he had ADHD or autism, but he did have, like, mental illness, so not fully neurotypical. And my - my most recent ex, Louis, had autism. So I just - I date neurodivergent people, almost exclusively.

Atlas: 13:13

Yeah.

Pen: 13:13

ND4ND.

Harvey: 13:15

Yeah, lowkey.

Pen: 13:18

Which is... I mean, I get it. I have also... have all my...? I suppose I don't know about him. I - because I have had the one boyfriend...

Harvey: 13:27

Oh, God, right.

Pen: 13:27

...but I was 14. Yeah.

Harvey: 13:29

I mean, that barely counts.

Pen: 13:31

It was a thing. It was not good. But anyway, since then... she has autism. She... well, I don't actually know what she had, but like, if she didn't, then that would be wild. She almost certainly did. And does... yeah, I think I've - I have also exclusively had neurodivergent partners except I don't know about... I shouldn't name drop him. That'd be weird.

Harvey: 13:57

Your ex-boyfriend?

Pen: 13:58

Yeah, my singular boyfriend.

Atlas: 14:00

Just the one.

Pen: 14:01

Yeah, just the single - just a single one. I mean, I thought I was a girl at the time. That was fun. I was in a heterosexual relationship.

Harvey: 14:08

No.

Atlas: 14:09

Bad.

Harvey: 14:09

No, heart.

Atlas: 14:11

Thumbs down.

Pen: 14:12

Don't worry. I got well soon.

Atlas: 14:14

Congratulations.

Harvey: 14:15

Congrats.

Pen: 14:15

Thank you. So yes, we've had - we've had neurodivergent partners. Atlas, you don't have to expose your dating history if you don't want to.

Atlas: 14:25

I'd rather not.

Pen: 14:25

Yeah, that's - and there we go. Harvey and I are the only ones obligated to strip ourselves bear on the podcast.

Harvey: 14:34

No, it's okay. We do it for fun.

Pen: 14:36

Yeah, no, that's the - that's... we're quirky.

Harvey: 14:41

Never call me quirky again. [Laughter]

Pen: 14:42

Um, but, yes. So let's talk about that. Huh? Neurodivergent partners?

Atlas: 14:53

Yeah.

Harvey: 14:53

Yeah, okay.

Pen: 14:55

Um, do we want to do the creative writing thing of talking about the good parts first, or do we want to do the thing where we talk about the - the troubling things first, and then end on a positive note?

Harvey: 15:07

I hate making decisions. Hang on.

Atlas: 15:09

Harvey making a decision in their life?

Pen: 15:09

Yep. [coin rattling] Oh, that's good audio.

Harvey: 15:12

I have an idea. I'm gonna flip a coin. Tails.

Pen: 15:30

That was the bad, right?

Harvey: 15:31

Yeah, we start with the bad.

Pen: 15:32

Okay, cool, I also instantly forgot.

Atlas: 15:34

ADHD!

Pen: 15:35

Yeah!

Harvey: 15:36

Yeah, we start with the bad.

Pen: 15:37

Okay. Yeah, it's a good thing Harvey and I don't both have ADHD. It would be so...

Atlas: 15:41

Oh, no.

Pen: 15:42

The podcast would just be like, so y'all just talked, huh? No topic or anything?

Atlas: 15:47

No, no, just conversations.

Pen: 15:48

Which we get dangerously close to anyway, but... So the troubling things. Well, you know how with depression, you don't have motivation to do anything?

Atlas: 16:03

Yes.

Pen: 16:04

And you can't really pull yourself out of it very well. And it's like, completely debilitating and totally messes you up. And it can, like, really put a lot of strain on a relationship, nd often you need help from other people.

Atlas: 16:18

Yeah.

Harvey: 16:19

Oh, yeah.

Atlas: 16:19

What if both? I know it's - it sucks.

Pen: 16:22

It's miserable.

Atlas: 16:24

When you're both absolutely going through it, and it's like, you don't know what to do with your hands. Like, who holds who?

Harvey: 16:31

Which is kind of the spot we've been in for the past...

Atlas: 16:34

Yep.

Harvey: 16:35

...couple weeks?

Atlas: 16:36

Yep.

Harvey: 16:36

Probably the whole time we've been dating, let's be real.

Atlas: 16:38

Yep. [laughter]

Pen: 16:40

It is very difficult to you know, you want to support your partner. You want to be there for them. And then you can't be there for yourself.

Atlas: 16:50

Yep.

Pen: 16:50

So how do you... it becomes...

Harvey: 16:54

I need help.

Pen: 16:55

Yes. So that's - that's one. Which is, I know, for - for Harvey and other depression. It's just kind of like, well, yeah, that just happens sometimes, and is kind of an always.

Harvey: 17:08

I'm always at least a little bit depressed. I'm chronically suicidal, even, which can be really rough on relationships.

Pen: 17:15

Which is... it's different if you have a partner who is not Yeah, yeah. It's... and that - it can sometimes come out of the blue, and that can really- like, that just fundamentally neurodivergent, or a partner who just doesn't experience causes a strain on a relationship.

Harvey: 17:24

Yeah. That some people just aren't depressed. depression. Which like, it's always weird to remember that that happens?

Pen: 17:38

I...

Harvey: 17:39

Sounds fake.

Pen: 17:40

I need to meet some people like that. Just see what it's like to live that because it does legit sound fake at this point.

Harvey: 17:46

It does. You know, and I think, too, my one partner that doesn't have autism, sometimes the thing that becomes readily apparent to me is how frustrating for other people my inability to understand things, if it's not explicitly pointed out to me can be, and that always feels really bad because I- like, to me, I never feel like I'm asking for much when I just want things explicitly stated. And apparently, for some people, that is very frustrating. And it's like, why?

Pen: 18:19

Yeah.

Atlas: 18:20

I like communication.

Pen: 18:21

Communication. Communication is excellent. I'm so bias.

Atlas: 18:26

Communication majors be like.

Pen: 18:30

You'd think would you be better at talking, then. Or, well, talking... less, or more interestingly... I'm dunking on everyone who's ever been in my major.

Harvey: 18:40

That's okay. They kind of deserve it.

Pen: 18:42

Oh, yeah, I didn't like most of my classmates. Anyway. We're not talking about that. I already talked about that and one of us. But it's... communication can be so - well, we actually just did an episode on that, Harvey, how...

Harvey: 18:58

Yeah.

Pen: 18:59

...communication can be challenging,

Harvey: 19:01

Especially with the interaction of, like, I do not read between the lines. Bothing. I said have - nothing I say really has anything behind it other than what I'm saying, and a lot of people just don't assume that that's true.

Pen: 19:14

Yeah, it's... typical thing with communication for neurotypical people, which is, like, kind of wack.

Harvey: 19:28

Why would you do that? That sounds so inefficient.

Pen: 19:32

You know, the weird thing about neurotypical people? They don't think about efficiency in their own lives very much. Or like efficiency in communication. I've always thought that was weird, and that they should just do it, but I haven't been able to convince anybody yet. In fact, they usually get pretty mad at me.

Harvey: 19:52

Pourin' one out for you, homie.

Pen: 19:53

Thanks. Wish they'd be just... better at having brains. But, well... we can't all be cool.

Harvey: 20:00

If you need more time, I'm su Atlas, are there any immediate negatives that come to mind? We're just kind of going around the table.

Atlas: 20:04

Hmm...

Pen: 20:04

It's a rectangle table.

Harvey: 20:06

Triangle.

Atlas: 20:07

I was gonna say, it's more of a triangle.

Harvey: 20:08

We're shaped in a triangle.

Atlas: 20:10

Yeah. We're all kind of sitting.

Harvey: 20:11

Angle. Three of them. I'll stop talking now.

Pen: 20:17

Thank you so much, Harvey.

Atlas: 20:20

I'm trying to think.

Pen: 20:22

Oh, I can always say something.

Atlas: 20:24

You guys say some more things, and let me think in my brain.

Pen: 20:27

It's - I actually just last night had a thing with communicating with my girlfriend, which was like, I was explaining that something that she had, uh... we were playing Magic, which, yeah, I know.

Harvey: 20:41

Ha, nerd.

Pen: 20:42

Thank you.

Harvey: 20:43

Loser.

Pen: 20:44

Yeah.

Harvey: 20:44

I love you.

Pen: 20:45

You should bully me for being into Magic the Gathering. Everyone who plays Magic the Gathering deserves to be bullied. My younger siblings are into Magic the Gathering. I'm really sorry, but they're geeks.

Atlas: 20:53

Yeah, I know.

Pen: 20:58

And, uh, we were talking about one of the cards that she had in her deck, which is a pet card of mine. And she said that it was pretty good, which to me, pretty good is, like, below good, and feels like a - like a disagreement that's just couched in, like not actively disagreeing. And so there was a bit of me that just like, kind of felt rejected from that. Wow, I wonder what it's like to not have, like, ADHD and RSD and things and listen to me say that, because it must sound absolutely bonkers; like bananas wild.

Harvey: 21:35

And see, like, removed from the situation, it sounds a little wild, but also being someone who experiences RSD, I understand.

Pen: 21:42

And it wasn't an extreme thing, because I'm - I was gonna say an adult, but adults aren't actually that good at communication.

Harvey: 21:48

No, we're terrible at it.

Pen: 21:49

Or emotional regulation.

Atlas: 21:50

No one is good at anything inherently.

Pen: 21:53

And that's very, very true.

Harvey: 21:54

That's some wisdom, dude,

Atlas: 21:55

I-

Pen: 21:56

It is.

Atlas: 21:57

...just said that, not even thinking.

Pen: 22:00

Well, you just have a good brain. And, you know, because I make an effort to be good at

Harvey: 22:01

It's because you're smart. You're smart and handsome.

Atlas: 22:04

Aw, you're so sweet. understanding my own emotions and communicating them well, to all people, but especially those who I care about. I talked to her about it. I was like, hey, so I figured out that that is what I was feeling, and we had a little bit of a back and forth where I realized, like, we were just hitting a bit of a wall where what I wanted was to know if that was what she meant when she said pretty good, and what she was doing was explaining, like, that she had not intended to make me feel rejected, which was just not at all, like... we were not meeting each other on that.

Harvey: 22:44

No.

Atlas: 22:45

We were talking about two different things. And that's something that happens, like, not uncommonly.

Harvey: 22:52

Happens to me with my relationships, too.

Pen: 22:55

The communication, like- it can be so specific, and that can be... and then when when things get frustrating and difficult to understand, particularly when you are neurodivergent as in autism or ADHD, your brain is on the one track and getting it off of that track, oh, it's so difficult to do.

Atlas: 23:16

Why would your brain think anything else?

Harvey: 23:19

This is what we've always thought this is the entire time.

Atlas: 23:22

This is how we do things.

Pen: 23:23

This is how we process information. Why would it change?

Atlas: 23:25

Yeah. Change. Change? Change.

Pen: 23:28

I'm sorry, change? That's scary and bad. And like hitting that wall...

Harvey: 23:35

Yeah.

Pen: 23:36

...in any respect can be so challenging to work through. And the-

Harvey: 23:41

Especially if you start taking it personally.

Pen: 23:43

Yes. And the thing about relationships is you're always going to hit a wall of communication at one point or another.

Atlas: 23:48

Especially when you can't communicate.

Pen: 23:50

Yep.

Atlas: 23:52

Yeah, like I've... I get overwhelmed sometimes, like, in stores and things, like today.

Harvey: 24:00

You did earlier today.

Atlas: 24:00

Yeah.

Pen: 24:02

Stores suck.

Atlas: 24:02

Yeah. We went to Walmart. Yeah. Oh, my God, mistake, but I needed groceries and things.

Harvey: 24:07

So did I.

Atlas: 24:08

It was a necessary battle. But sometimes talking is hard. And having a partner- this is not Harvey. Harvey understands. Having a partner-

Harvey: 24:20

Because I'm autistic.

Atlas: 24:21

Having a partner who doesn't understand nonverbal is hard.

Pen: 24:27

Oh, that sounds miserable.

Atlas: 24:28

Yeah. Cuz talk that you're not mad at them.

Pen: 24:31

Ooh...

Harvey: 24:32

Your ex-partner was mentally ill, but didn't have autism or ADHD.

Atlas: 24:38

Yeah. So there was a lot of disconnect there between,

Pen: 24:39

Yeah.

Atlas: 24:41

Just to talk. like, how I would behave in certain things, and she would Which, then, makes it worse because you're - you're not only not get it. Like, yeah. And it's just hard because it's like, I'm not mad at you, and I can't explain that. I'm not mad at you, because it's very hard to do things right now. stressed from the stress, but you're also stressed because of communication things, which is very difficult.

Pen: 25:15

It's a - that is a vicious, vicious circle.

Atlas: 25:17

Yep.

Harvey: 25:18

Which that's one of the nice things about us being neurodivergent in such a similar way, because I just kind of implicitly understand going nonverbal after being in a store. Hate stores.

Pen: 25:28

Stores are awful.

Atlas: 25:29

Thumbs down on stores, except for Aldi. Aldi gets a smooch.

Pen: 25:33

Aldi is - Aldi is better.

Atlas: 25:35

Not best, but better. No store is best.

Pen: 25:37

No store is best.

Harvey: 25:37

Thank God.

Pen: 25:37

Oh, God, I actually just relaxed. My shoulders actually...if we want to interact with other people, because we There is no good store. Leave me alone! If there - if I just untensed a little. was the only one there and there were no lights, I would be...

Atlas: 25:45

And just a little bit of music. have to explain ourselves. See, so masking episode. Last one. Good episode.

Harvey & Pen: 26:24

Thank you!

Pen: 26:27

And that's really, really hard to do. It's something that also, you know, comes up not just in interacting with society, but also interacting with other people, you know, that you might be in a relationship with. Having to be very conscious of, you know, in, like - in the example that I gave about my girlfriend and I last night, if I had not been aware of, like, why it was that I was feeling rejected, I can tell you, before I was good at recognizing that, it was just the feeling of rejection, and no real way of like, communicating it or anything, Like, I had to do that - that growth and that, like, introspection.

Harvey: 27:08

LOL.

Atlas: 27:09

Haha. Ha.

Pen: 27:09

Funny to learn that and be able to communicate it, because otherwise you just hit a wall really fast. And,

Atlas: 27:17

Yeah.

Harvey: 27:17

It's not good for anybody.

Pen: 27:19

And it can be... things can go kind of bad. Like there's - it can be difficult to learn that, I think it's also pretty necessary, because otherwise, things can devolve, and people can, intentionally or not, be rather selfish with their emotions, and ask a lot. And sometimes you're predisposed to being very giving with things, especially if you are also neurodivergent. And so you understand why someone would be having a hard time communicating these things. And so you think, Well, I mean, I understand, I get it, so it's not that big of a deal, right? Wrong.

Atlas: 27:55

Wrong.

Harvey: 27:56

Wrong, and then you shove it down, and then yeah, like, I don't... I got into an argument with one of my partners, not this one.

Atlas: 28:05

Not me.

Harvey: 28:05

Not you... the other night, kind of about that sort of selfish emotions piece. And I found myself having that really difficult time reconciling like, I understand where you're coming from, and you do have an unquestionable right to your feelings. And also, I am so angry that this is the way that you're feeling about something. Which has been weird for us to navigate.

Atlas: 28:37

Yeah, we're literally, like, the spider man emoji or - emoji. Meme where they're all pointing at each other.

Harvey: 28:44

Thank God.

Atlas: 28:46

It's, like, no, you. I'm take care of you know, you can't bite me. Nope. This is a family friendly podcast, Harvey.

Harvey: 28:55

Not hard. Just a li'l... just a li'l ni- eat him like corn on cob. A li'l

Pen: 29:02

Add that to the bits where if you're not neurodivergent must be like, sorry what did- Biting? Bite?

Atlas: 29:09

What?

Pen: 29:10

Anyway. I refuse to explain myself.

Atlas: 29:14

And you don't have to.

Harvey: 29:14

Nor should you.

Pen: 29:17

I am an enigma. Though, speaking of explaining yourself to your partner...

Atlas: 29:20

Oh, God.

Pen: 29:23

It is really important to recognize, I think, like, yes, you get to just feel things and that's always true. And yes, sometimes your feelings are unreasonable. Like sometimes the way that you feel about something just isn't gonna be like, sometimes it is just kind of selfish. And that's - I say that's okay, and what I mean by that is like, you can't control whether or not you feel.

Harvey: 29:48

The thing that I always say is you can't control your feelings, but you can control what you do with them.

Pen: 29:53

Exactly. I think that the healthiest thing to do is to accept your feelings for just being what they are. Legitimately, you can't do anything else, because if you try to do something else, you'll end up guilting yourself and trying to just suppress the emotions, which, let me tell you, does not make them go away.

Atlas: 30:15

Something I've learned is you can feel things, and they don't have to be okay sometimes. They're allowed to be yours, and you can feel them.

Pen: 30:26

Yeah.

Harvey: 30:27

And sometimes it is worthwhile to process your emotions away from the people.

Atlas: 30:31

Mm-hmm.

Pen: 30:31

Yes.

Atlas: 30:32

Yeah. Like, last night, we were talking about the concert that neither of us can really go to. Yeah. And I was like, damn, I'm sad. But I'm not sad at Harvey. I'm just sad that I can't go to the concert.

Pen: 30:47

It's...

Harvey: 30:48

And we, like, kind of just didn't talk about it, because there wasn't really anything that would come from talking about it.

Atlas: 30:52

We were just like like, oh, man, that sucks. Shoot.

Pen: 30:55

Mm-hmm.

Harvey: 30:55

Okay, I'm gonna drive home now.

Pen: 30:56

And sometimes, like - sometimes that's it. And sometimes, like... sometimes you are feeling something, or someone else might be feeling something that's, like, more challenging or difficult.

Harvey: 31:10

Complicated.

Pen: 31:11

And what it comes down to is, like, maybe, you can inform

Atlas: 31:11

Complications. your partner that this is how you're feeling, and not make it their problem, though. Yeah.

Pen: 31:25

Sometimes you can feel a thing, and I'm trying not to be specific here, because I have examples in mind, but they aren't really mine to talk about.

Atlas: 31:32

You can communicate...

Harvey: 31:33

Do you have an example with us?

Pen: 31:36

Not with you and Atlas. But...

Harvey: 31:39

I mean you and I.

Pen: 31:40

You and- oh! You and I. Okay.

Harvey: 31:42

Because we can lay that out.

Pen: 31:44

Oh, God, I don't know.

Harvey: 31:46

That's okay. We don't have to get stuck thinking about an example.

Pen: 31:49

But yeah, it's - sometimes you feel a thing, and it is selfish. And...

Harvey: 31:56

And that's okay.

Pen: 31:56

...it can be good to tell your partner like, hey, I am feeling this thing, especially if it's very intense.

Harvey: 32:00

Or even - just, you don't even have to be specific sometimes. Just like, I am not feeling well.

Pen: 32:05

But sometimes it is, like, if you're feeling one thing very intensely, can be good to explain that to the person who it's related to, because that's going to potentially impact your communication with them.

Harvey: 32:17

And that was - that was kind of relevant to the conversation I had with my partner last night where I was like... I am feeling angry, you didn't make me angry. That is the way I am responding to the situation. That's not yours to manage.

Pen: 32:30

And that can be - that can be very good and healthy to be like, this is what I'm feeling. I am going to manage it elsewhere and talk to other people about it, because this is not your thing to help me process.

Atlas: 32:43

It can also be really hard to accept that.

Pen: 32:45

Yes.

Atlas: 32:46

Because it's like, oh, but I want to help. [Crosstalk]

Pen: 32:51

The other side of it is like, what if I fixed everything in the world? All for you? What if I just made everything okay?

Atlas: 32:58

Yeah, I can do that. Yeah.

Harvey: 33:00

That - that is both reasonable and possible to achieve.

Atlas: 33:04

Yep.

Pen: 33:04

And it is - it's... being emotionally drained, when all you want is to give more. And it seems like a good thing that you should give more, especially like, in our society, that kind of thing is also rewarded, at least conceptually, is like, yes, give and be selfless, and do the work. Help other people! Just keep helping! Help, help! And don't make it about yourself. Ever!

Harvey: 33:33

Don't you dare!

Atlas: 33:34

It can't be about you actually.

Harvey: 33:35

Ever.

Atlas: 33:35

Nope.

Harvey: 33:36

You don't get to have feelings.

Pen: 33:38

We all have religious trauma.

Harvey: 33:42

Converted to a whole different Judeo-Christian religion about it.

Pen: 33:46

That's - it's really funny.

Atlas: 33:48

And I just said no.

Pen: 33:51

And - so it's... all you want to do is give, but the healthiest possible thing that you can do...

Harvey: 33:59

Is to stop giving.

Atlas: 34:01

...is to draw a boundary.

Harvey: 34:03

And boundary setting is so hard when you're neurodivergent. Because good God, number one, you've been told to shove down everything you feel for your entire life. Number two, the people you care about legitimately need help just as much as you do.

Pen: 34:17

Yeah. And so it can feel so selfish and so awful to be like, this one can't be mine. I can't help. Whether that's I can't help right now, or sometimes. I just can't help with this one. And especially if your partner is not yet at that point...

Atlas: 34:37

Yep.

Harvey: 34:38

Of emotional maturity.

Pen: 34:39

...when you are at different points in the emotional maturity and the growth, that can be so challenging.

Atlas: 34:46

Because it sounds like you're admitting defeat

Pen: 34:49

It - and it can feel like, uh, they might feel like you're rejecting them by saying no, I'm not going to help you with this. And it's like, "Oh, so you hate me? I'm not enough? You don't love me?"

Atlas: 35:02

Yep.

Pen: 35:02

And it's like...

Harvey: 35:03

It's like, no, it's because I love you that I am drawing this boundary, because trying to help you with this will help and neither of us

Pen: 35:09

It will just make things worse.

Atlas: 35:10

Make things worse. Make things bad.

Pen: 35:12

And it's... it can be very, very difficult to... like this is - like you and Harvey both, I'm talking to Atlas, do that thing of, like, wanting to help and always help. It can be very, very difficult when your partner does not have that instinct.

Atlas: 35:30

Yeah.

Pen: 35:30

And so they don't understand, like, just the inherent emotional drain that comes from having a partner in the first place, because that's just a part of how we all express our love.

Atlas: 35:43

Yep.

Pen: 35:44

And so trying to say like, I love you, one of the things that comes with me loving you, is wanting to just give and give and help. And I need to not do that all the time for my health, which then is also about our relationship's health.

Atlas: 35:58

Mm-hmm.

Harvey: 35:59

Yep.

Pen: 35:59

And if that is not supported, then... I'm having a hard time drawing this boundary in the first place, because everything in me is screaming to continue to be... like, try and be selfless in this way. And so then if your partner doesn't understand it, or like... or responds by calling you selfish, or feeling, like, rejected in that, or...

Atlas: 36:21

Just asking you to do more.

Harvey: 36:22

It is so painful.

Pen: 36:23

It's just like, oh, no. Or even if it's like, they just don't understand why it would be draining, or that you're giving more because it seems...

Atlas: 36:33

Or, like, they get sad.

Pen: 36:34

Or they get sad, or maybe, because, hey, this is part of a love language thing. It makes all of us feel good to do these things. And when that goes unrecognized, too not that we do it for thanks. That's not how a love language works. But when it's not recognized that like, hey, I'm putting a lot of energy into this, and effort, and that means that I have put energy and effort into a thing, and so I have less of it.

Atlas: 36:58

Yeah.

Harvey: 36:59

And I need you to recognize that I have less of it.

Pen: 37:01

I have less of it, because I wanted to do this thing for you, because I love you, and I need you to know what that means. Yep.

Harvey: 37:07

And you know, on balance, At, like... I think, because we both have the tendency to give and give and give, we tend to balance each other out pretty well.

Atlas: 37:14

Yeah.

Harvey: 37:14

But I will say, all things considered, it's really hard for you to get to a place where I let you help me.

Atlas: 37:21

Yeah.

Harvey: 37:22

I'm... like, you're a little bit more receptive to me helping you. I am extremely stubborn.

Atlas: 37:27

Yes, I know. And I love you.

Harvey: 37:30

I love you, too. And you are also... you are - I wouldn't call you forceful.

Atlas: 37:36

No.

Harvey: 37:36

You are insistent.

Atlas: 37:37

Yes. Which... Gently, gently insistent of being like, Hey, let me do this, please.

Harvey: 37:44

I'm holding you. You're not telling me no, unless you don't want to be touched. And I'm like, well...

Pen: 37:50

Which is...

Atlas: 37:50

I am going to clean your kitchen.

Harvey: 37:52

Which he just did.

Atlas: 37:53

Yeah, I did. I did that.

Harvey: 37:55

I did not ask.

Atlas: 37:56

And I did it. And I was like, I'm going to help, and that's how it's going to be!

Harvey: 38:01

I was literally putting clothes away in my room, and I pop back into the kitchen to throw a frozen pizza into the oven, and I hear him in the kitchen. And I'm like, "What are you doing?"

Atlas: 38:08

And I'm like, "Nothing."

Harvey: 38:10

So I walk in there and he's cleaning my entire kitchen, and like...

Atlas: 38:13

I literally had the, like, Lysol in my hand and a paper towel on the counter. And I look at you and I'm like, you've caught me.

Harvey: 38:23

Just like this - this like shh eating grin. Like... like, thanks. And genuinely, like, it was extremely sweet of you. And I think this sort of starts to segue into the ways in which neurodivergence is nice in a relationship.

Pen: 38:37

We already talked a little bit on like, being able to understand each other.

Atlas: 38:42

Oh, God.

Harvey: 38:43

The fact - like, I'm glad that I can give you a space where you do not have to explain to me that sometimes you're just nonverbal after being in a public place.

Pen: 38:50

It's so nice. And I know that you're not upset with me because you know I'm not mad at you.

Harvey: 38:55

My God, of course I'm not upset. I'm sorry stores are awful.

Atlas: 38:58

Yeah.

Pen: 39:00

And there is like, going back to the depression example, if you're in relationship with someone who doesn't have depression, they can offer you support and that's great. And also, I have seen - I've read articles about it, I have not experienced this myself. Everyone I love is depressed. But, that it can be very difficult to try and explain like, hey, no, I promise I'm not- I just can't. I can't. And having that, like, misunderstanding and miscommunication can be so bad, that having people who are like, no, yeah, of course. What - you don't have to - you don't have to justify yourself to me at all.

Harvey: 39:42

Yes, of course. I'll clean your kitchen for you. I know you've been going through it.

Atlas: 39:45

Also, and this is just a thing that I tell you, I have literally seen worse. Like, you... so my uncle has depression, and at the death of my grandpa, we - my mom and I cleaned that entire condo and it was very bad. So I've literally seen worse, so much worse. And it is not your fault, and I can help because I don't - I don't have depression, I probably experience.

Harvey: 40:19

Wait, you don't?

Atlas: 40:20

I don't think so.

Harvey: 40:21

Huh. How about that.

Atlas: 40:23

Yeah.

Harvey: 40:24

I just kind of assume that all of my loved ones have depression.

Pen: 40:28

If you or a loved one have experienced-

Harvey: 40:29

You may be entitled to financial compensation.

Atlas: 40:32

I definitely experience, probably, depression - bluh - depressive episodes, but I do not think that I have depression all the time.

Harvey: 40:43

I cannot imagine that - this contextualizes why - why you were so quiet when I was talking about being chronically suicidal earlier. Because you were like, huh?!

Atlas: 40:53

No, I mean, I understand it.

Harvey: 40:55

But like, it's not something you've ever experienced. So it's just like - well, not like - I'm not saying you've never felt suicidal, but like, chronic suicidality, I'm assuming it's not something you've experienced,

Atlas: 41:04

No, but I - I'm familiar with the concept enough to be like, okay. That makes sense.

Pen: 41:09

Which is, you know, that's- that's kind of another piece of it, I think, because I have experienced, I think, both sides of - of this. When I was younger, I was, like... I've talked about this a little bit, that like, my ADHD influences every other part of my neurodivergence. The only one that might be a little bit more separate is my social anxiety, but like, the depression, I have depressive episodes now, and that is related to my ADHD.

Atlas: 41:40

Yeah, I think that's pretty much very similar to what I get.

Pen: 41:44

Which, hey, learning that that was a thing, it was helpful. But when I was younger, I'm sure that the ADHD and depression were still related. The depression was absolutely a problem on its own. It may as well have just been like, I have ADHD that contributes to depression, and also major depressive disorder.

Atlas: 42:02

I think I probably definitely had depression in high school. I was...

Pen: 42:06

High school sucks.

Atlas: 42:07

High school; okay, uh, private Christian high school without a diagnosis of anything.

Pen: 42:13

Oh, no!

Atlas: 42:13

Yeah. My.. in elementary school, my teachers were like,"Hey, get this one checked out, maybe," and my mom said, no.

Pen: 42:21

Oopsies!

Atlas: 42:23

And so I didn't know that, and I figured out that I, through talking with my therapist, that I definitely have ADHD, and that's changed things.

Pen: 42:32

Yeah. Doesn't it just open all the door?

Atlas: 42:36

It just explains so much.

Pen: 42:38

In retrospect, it's just like, so that's what that... oh.

Atlas: 42:42

Yeah. And I think just being aware of that has helped so much of being like, oh, okay, so yeah.

Harvey: 42:52

Same thing with my autism. You know what, it was really funny, I sort of realized when I was dating my first partner, Chris...

Atlas: 43:01

Love Chris.

Harvey: 43:01

Love him so much - that I was - I realized that I was autistic, probably when I was dating him. Like, I kind of had an inkling when I was - before I met him, but I was definitely more unsure about it. Then I met him. I was like, shoot, I think I'm autistic. And he's like, yeah. Yeah, you are.

Pen: 43:19

It's what it's like when you're the other person is like,"Did you not know that?"

Atlas: 43:24

You... you didn't know?

Harvey: 43:25

We had that moment, too where you were like, "Yeah, sometimes I wonder if I'm autistic." And I'm like, wait, you're not diagnosed?

Pen: 43:31

And I have seen your... your autism journey, Harvey, from the outside.

Harvey: 43:38

Like - like your gender journey? Inside joke about one of the Pen's past therapists.

Pen: 43:44

She was trying her best, but she missed the mark. And... but yeah, so like, understanding each other, being able to support each other, being able to be on the outside, like, yeah, no, what you're experiencing is, like... you know, baseline what you're experiencing is valid, and I love you and I support you, and also yeah, you're neurodiverse!

Harvey: 44:04

Was this ever a question?

Pen: 44:05

Honey, do you not know that? Like, having someone who can be the objective outsider, who still cares for you, and also just has these fundamental understandings of what it's like to exist in...

Atlas: 44:16

Super validating.

Pen: 44:17

...in, like, a brain, like[inaudible] oh, oh God.

Atlas: 44:21

I'm a little bit of both your brains.

Harvey: 44:22

You had your first panic attack with me.

Atlas: 44:25

Yes.

Harvey: 44:27

But of all the people that have a panic attack with.

Pen: 44:29

Oh, Harvey's a great person have a panic attack with.

Harvey: 44:31

I spent a good chunk of that time telling you stories about cells. I started explaining to him the psychological mechanisms behind a panic attack. And it did genuinely help, it seemed.

Pen: 44:42

I love it when Harvey does that!

Atlas: 44:44

It's really good!

Harvey: 44:45

You benefited from understanding what your body was doing.

Atlas: 44:47

Yeah, the panic attack was an hour long.

Harvey: 44:50

It was a really long one.

Pen: 44:51

Oh, God, that's so... oh, yikesies.

Atlas: 44:53

Yeah, lots of literally shivering. Like, that's how bad it was. I never experienced that before, and Harvey said it was very bad.

Harvey: 45:02

It was genuinely like a super bad panic attack.

Pen: 45:05

Oh, wow, this is—

Harvey: 45:07

Worse than anything I've ever experienced. I was sitting there like, Whoa! Yeah, so hey, another benefit...

Pen: 45:15

Longtime listeners of Beyond Introspection podcast might understand when Harvey says that an anxiety or panic attack is bad...

Atlas: 45:21

It's bad. Yeah. It is not fun.

Harvey: 45:26

And no, but that, and you know that's the—that's, again with the experiential—sometimes it's the experiential understanding too, that like, Oh, this is the first time you're going through this. I've done this so many times I know what's going on and I know that I can help you.

Atlas: 45:39

Yeah.

Pen: 45:40

And that this is like how I can...

Atlas: 45:41

Yeah. Because I think if I was—honestly if I was by myself or with someone else, it would have been so much worse.

Harvey: 45:51

Yeah.

Pen: 45:52

Mhm. Yeah, this is, this is a very good thing that like understanding each other and having, again, like that experiential knowledge is so so so helpful. Because being neurodivergent is an experience. It's one that we're all just going to have, for all of it the whole time.

Atlas: 46:08

Isn't it kind of just nutty that there are people who don't experience the disabilities in their brain?

Pen: 46:14

Nutty is—I love the word nutty for it.

Harvey: 46:16

That's a good one.

Pen: 46:18

And also, yeah, I straight up don't get... like, what's it like?

Harvey: 46:25

To not have disabilities in your brain?

Atlas: 46:27

Yeah. Where the disabilities are stored.

Harvey: 46:29

That's where the disabilities are stored.

Pen: 46:31

Dallas said several times yesterday, I like it a lot: You, uh, we contain multitudes.

Harvey & Atlas: 46:36

Yes!

Atlas: 46:37

Yep.

Harvey: 46:37

I love Dallas so much.

Atlas: 46:39

God, Dallas is amazing.

Pen: 46:40

Dallas is great.

Atlas: 46:42

He's my boss, kind of.

Pen: 46:44

That's fun.

Atlas: 46:44

Yeah.

Harvey: 46:45

He's going to be my roommate. And he's your friend.

Pen: 46:49

Yeah, we're gonna listen to more podcast stuff together.

Atlas: 46:53

Shout out to Dallas. If you're listening, we all love you.

Pen: 46:55

Does Dallas know that this podcast exists?

Harvey: 46:57

I have no idea.

Atlas: 46:59

We should tell him.

Harvey: 46:59

We should.

Atlas: 47:01

Hey Dallas, you should listen to this episode at this time, specifically.

Pen: 47:05

And then like an out of context clip. I would be happy to make and like [beep sound]. And then text back like, what is this from? Were you guys just sitting there talking about me?

Atlas: 47:14

Yes. That is actually what's happening.

Pen: 47:17

Yeah.

Harvey: 47:18

More or less. Why don't we all share at least one more nice thing.

Pen: 47:23

Yes.

Harvey: 47:23

About neurodivergence and relationships.

Pen: 47:25

[Gasp]

Harvey: 47:26

Yes. That was so cute. Go on.

Atlas: 47:29

That was adorable.

Pen: 47:30

I got very excited because—and this is actually directly related to what it is—my girlfriend and I both have ADHD. And there's—

Harvey: 47:36

I love it when you say your girlfriend. Go on.

Atlas: 47:38

It's so good.

Pen: 47:39

I like saying my girlfriend. I'm queer. I'm bisexual.

Atlas: 47:42

Whoa!

Pen: 47:43

Isn't that so cool of me?

Harvey: 47:44

So poggers.

Atlas: 47:45

Right? You and Harvey—

Harvey: 47:46

Bisexual. I don't know what you are.

Atlas: 47:48

I'm just kind of.

Harvey: 47:50

Yeah, you did identify as a lesbian until you ended up down bad for me.

Atlas: 47:53

Yep. And that's funny because I still have the lesbian flag hanging up in my dorm room.

Pen: 47:57

Sometimes there's just an asterisk.

Atlas: 47:59

I really want to get both the woman loving—Well, I already have the lesbian or woman loving woman flag. I really want to get the man loving man flag—

Harvey: 48:07

The toothpaste flag.

Atlas: 48:09

Crest sponsored flag.

Harvey: 48:12

Have them both in your apartment.

Atlas: 48:13

I want to have them both and like the nonbinary flag right in between them. And I just want people to figure it out on their own.

Pen: 48:19

This is fun. This is a fun art installation.

Atlas: 48:21

I like women in the gay way and I like men, asterisk, in the gay way.

Pen: 48:26

Yeah.

Atlas: 48:26

So...

Pen: 48:27

And if you don't understand what that means, um...

Harvey: 48:29

Sorry!

Pen: 48:32

Sorry.

Atlas: 48:33

I like people. It always has to be gay.

Pen: 48:35

Yes, that's what it's like when you're nonbinary.

Harvey: 48:38

Yeah.

Pen: 48:41

The temptation there, by the way, to be like, if you don't understand what that's like, do I have the terminology list for you?

Harvey: 48:50

Introducing...!

Atlas: 48:52

Well also that's kind of fun about...me and Harvey also experience gender in a very similar way as well.

Harvey: 48:57

Yeah. Which is unrelated—Well. Well, I was about to say it's totally unrelated to neurodivergence but it's totally related.

Atlas: 49:03

Most autistic—well, I shouldn't say most. A lot of autistic people have issues with gender.

Harvey: 49:08

The...the science does point to a disproportionate peop—uh, A disproportionate amount of autistic people are also trans.

Pen: 49:18

I think we've talked about this before.

Harvey: 49:19

I believe in the autism episode.

Pen: 49:21

Yeah. On like, how, you know, having more difficulty perceiving social constructs when gender is one of those. It's fake. Also, y'all are lactose intolerant, huh?

Atlas: 49:31

No.

Pen: 49:33

You're not?

Atlas: 49:33

No.

Pen: 49:34

You may be the first...one a very few autistic people I've met who is not lactose intolerant.

Atlas: 49:38

Not lactose intolerant.

Pen: 49:39

Wow.

Atlas: 49:40

Crazy.

Harvey: 49:41

Lack toes and toddler ants.

Atlas: 49:43

Yeah, hon.

Harvey: 49:44

I'm so smart. Go on, you and your girlfriend—

Atlas: 49:46

I want to get—sorry.

Harvey: 49:48

No, what's up?

Atlas: 49:48

I want to get you the I can't drink milk shirt or I'll die, whatever the—It's like a D.A.R.E. shirt but it's just don't let me drink milk.

Harvey: 49:57

I will die.

Pen: 49:59

Look, I try to help with this, but it doesn't work. Harvey just drinks the milk.

Atlas: 50:04

That's just lactose intolerant people.

Harvey: 50:05

No one can stop me, milk is delicious. So Pen, your girlfriend.

Pen: 50:08

Yes, my girlfriend.

Atlas: 50:09

Your girlfriend.

Pen: 50:10

We both have ADHD, which is cool and fun. And that means that obviously both of us get hyper fixations and get very interested in things. And we also infodump, and one of my favorite things ever is when we get excited about each other info dumping. And we're like, I want to talk about this. And we're like, Yeah, do it! Like I will get super excited to like, I like knowing things. It's uh, I have said for many years now I am the best at Emily trivia. She will be talking about a thing, and I'll be like, Oh, it's from this! It's this thing. You told me this is what it is!

Harvey: 50:40

Emily trivia night.

Pen: 50:43

Because I like to say like, I paid attention! I know that thing about you!

Atlas: 50:46

It's hard to pay attention sometimes. And if you know that many things about another person. Oh, my goodness.

Pen: 50:51

I just like to—I mean, I like to express like, Hey, I was listening and paying attention. And also I get excited when I know things. Which might not, it might sound like a silly thing. If you aren't, I don't know if that's an ADHD thing, or if it's just a Pen thing, but I love to know facts. And then she will get like, super into me, explaining like video games that I'm into or things like that she'll be like, yeah. Yeah, do it! Just, just excited because I'm excited. And having that understanding of like, you know why we're both so excited or that we're just gonna go off about this. Like, info dumping to neurotypical people is such a weird...It can be very strange.

Atlas: 51:36

Harvey likes when I talk about artistic—

Harvey: 51:39

And plants.

Atlas: 51:40

Oh my god, I love plants.

Harvey: 51:42

I love setting him loose in a plant area.

Atlas: 51:46

There were so many plants in the back alley market and you just saw me get very excited.

Harvey: 51:50

It was so sweet.

Atlas: 51:51

And vintage, vintage glass. I get so excited about that stuff.

Harvey: 51:56

My heart almost broke when it turned out that that one piece you wanted didn't—they didn't accept cash and there was like, wait, I have singles!

Atlas: 52:05

And I put a plant in that. The plant clipping that I got, in the glass. It's both of my favorite things.

Harvey: 52:13

That's lovely.

Pen: 52:14

I remember you were you were you were going off about

Atlas: 52:17

The Pyrex? the—

Pen: 52:19

Yeah the pyrex, and I looked at you and said, Yeah, you're Harvey's type. If you guys weren't already dating and I met you I would go home and be like Harvey I have met. I've met the boy of your dreams.

Harvey: 52:29

[sing-song] Tell me that the man of my dreams. Anyway, this is just a really innocuous one. But one of my favorite things about being neurodivergent and dating another neurodivergent person. Mutual stimming.

Atlas: 52:44

Oh my god.

Pen: 52:45

Yes!

Harvey: 52:45

I like, yeah, you told me that I couldn't bite you on the podcast, but you will just let me chew on your fingers.

Pen: 52:51

Sometimes that's just what it is.

Atlas: 52:53

Yeah, and I really like when you lay on top of me.

Harvey: 52:59

Yep.

Atlas: 53:00

Just pressure.

Harvey: 53:01

We both like being rocked back and forth.

Atlas: 53:03

Oh my god. Yes.

Pen: 53:04

Vestibular stimming...

Atlas: 53:06

I think that's why I like roller coasters so much.

Pen: 53:09

Dope.

Harvey: 53:10

Can't relate, I hate roller coasters.

Pen: 53:12

Also, stimulation go fast.

Atlas: 53:15

Uh huh.

Harvey: 53:15

I do like to go fast.

Atlas: 53:17

Through air—

Pen: 53:17

Fast, quick.

Harvey: 53:18

I really wish there was someone, like, I miss being a child. And like when I was a kid, my dad used to just chuck me across a room onto like a bed or a couch. I wish someone was strong enough to just throw me at something.

Atlas: 53:30

My dad would take me and my siblings by the arms and just spin us around. Like, like a fucking windmill.

Harvey: 53:37

My dad also used to grab me by the ankles and just dangle me upside down.

Atlas: 53:41

Oh, yeah.

Harvey: 53:41

And I loved that when I was a kid.

Atlas: 53:44

Playgrounds?

Harvey: 53:45

Oh my god. Atlas. What's the...what's one more nice thing for you about dating neurodivergent people? I suppose neurodivergent person?

Atlas: 53:54

Yeah.

Pen: 53:56

Neurodivergent Harvey.

Harvey: 53:57

Tell me nice thing—No.

Atlas: 54:00

What's something nice about dating Harvey?

Pen: 54:03

There's just so many things.

Atlas: 54:04

So many things.

Harvey: 54:05

Oh, y'all are sweet.

Atlas: 54:07

I'm trying to think of something.

Pen: 54:09

We're just accurate, Harvey. I like to know facts.

Harvey: 54:11

I'm going to bite you.

Pen: 54:13

You can try. Also, I mean, yeah, sure.

Atlas: 54:16

Did we already talked about inherent understanding? Without explanation?

Pen: 54:22

Yes, several times, but that doesn't mean you can't say it again.

Harvey: 54:24

Yeah.

Atlas: 54:25

That's kind of...

Harvey: 54:26

Is that like the big one for you?

Atlas: 54:27

Yeah, that's a big one. Just the understanding. Like, sometimes you just don't have to explain things and that's nice. I'm trying to think of something else.

Harvey: 54:36

It's okay if you can't.

Pen: 54:36

It's alright.

Atlas: 54:37

I know. But I want to.

Harvey: 54:38

We can—Well, we this is usually the part in the episode and we really should, where we start to wrap things up. So if you want to, you can share that as a last thought while we go around. But Pen, do you have any closing thoughts about dating while neurodivergent?

Pen: 54:52

Um, it is something that can be—it is something that can be so personal. It's something that can be great and awesome, because you're able to support each other in unique ways. And it's something that can be so incredibly challenging because you cannot support each other in some unique ways. And it is something that I think in order to be, in order for any relationship to be successful, you have to put thought into it. And you have to really try to open up and communicate and understand yourself better in order to understand the other person better. And I think that that is particularly important with neurodivergence, because your emotional growth and ability to understand yourself will directly correlate to the success and health of your relationships, romantic, platonic, familial, and just all of them.

Harvey: 55:43

Yeah.

Pen: 55:44

And that is something I think to keep in mind because the rewards are fantastic and can be so amazing. And it is so important to be cognizant that you should never stop putting things in. And uh...we're all cool.

Atlas: 56:05

Yeah.

Harvey: 56:06

That's very true. The thought that I had is not family friendly. So I'm not going to share it. But in any case—

Atlas: 56:16

Tell us after.

Harvey: 56:17

Yeah, I will. But in any case, dating neurodivergent people is so cool. And epic and poggers and based.

Atlas: 56:23

Yeah, okay.

Harvey: 56:25

That's it.

Pen: 56:25

Really sorry to all of our, like, 40 plus year old listeners who just heard that, and had nothing.

Harvey: 56:34

And have to google like three new words.

Atlas: 56:36

So sarvey.

Pen: 56:37

So sarvey.

Atlas: 56:39

Um, yeah, dating neurodivergent people is nice. And...

Harvey: 56:48

Thank you.

Atlas: 56:48

Kiss. Um, it has its unique challenges and has its unique benefits, like any kind of relationship ever.

Harvey: 56:58

But honestly, the benefits for me outweigh the costs. So much.

Atlas: 57:02

Yeah, it's, it is worth it.

Pen: 57:04

Having had to explain to people some of like, the basics of what it is like to exist in my brain with like, ADHD presents such unique things that being in a relationship with someone who just gets it, and I don't have to tell her like, so this is a thing that just happens with me. It's like, we just know. And that is...

Atlas: 57:27

Relieving.

Pen: 57:28

Yes.

Harvey: 57:29

It so much less labor.

Pen: 57:31

To not feel othered in your own relationship.

Harvey: 57:37

To just feel like a part of it.

Atlas: 57:38

Yeah.

Pen: 57:40

That is a level of intimacy that is so—can be, can be just so beautiful.

Atlas: 57:46

Yeah. Like you don't have to, like, put in so much labor for basic intimacy stuff. Which is nice.

Pen: 57:52

Yeah, that is, I think that's really good. That's a very good way to put it to not have to put in so much labor for basic intimacy.

Harvey: 57:58

That is a wonderful way to close this out, I think. So, stick around for just a few more moments, we'll tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is run. Beyond introspection is an independently run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at BYNDpodcast. Or you can email us at beyonddot—that's D O T— podcast@gmail.com. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description. Got feedback for us? Feel free to reach out on social media or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.