Navigating Conflict while Neurodivergent

Harvey and Pen discuss how neurodivergence impacts emotional communication through the lens of a recent issue they had. Feat.: Conflict doesn't have to be scary; Harvey and Pen care about each other!; In other news, neurodivergence changes how you interact with yourself and others; The worm can of emotions; Kick it, Barack.

Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People: 

https://translifeline.org/

USA Suicide Prevention: 

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

International Suicide Hotlines: 

https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines

Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People: 

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/


Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:

https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte

Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:

https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/

https://stopaapihate.org/

Resources for US Immigrants:

https://www.informedimmigrant.com/

Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:

https://immigrationjustice.us/

Transcript

Pen  00:12

Hello, and welcome to Beyond introspection: a podcast about mental health, neurodivergence and how it impacts literally every aspect of your life.

Harvey  00:19

All of them.

Pen  00:21

I'm Pen.

Harvey  00:22

I'm Harvey.

Pen  00:23

And this episode, we're going to be talking about communication. Specifically, communicating feelings when you're neurodivergent.

Harvey  00:31

Emotions by CRJ.

Pen  00:34

EMOTION by Carly Rae Jepsen. It's a really good album. Anyway, that's not relevant. Well, it's relevant to my life. Uh-huh.

Harvey  00:41

Definitely.

Pen  00:44

Yeah. There was a situation that Harvey and I had recently that - that sparked this episode that we will get into.

Harvey  00:52

Yeah.

Pen  00:53

So this is gonna - it's also going to - we're at least likely going to reference our trauma, because that's...

Harvey  00:58

Well, of course we are.

Pen  00:59

That's-

Harvey  00:59

We do that in every episode.

Pen  01:00

Well, yeah, absolutely. Trauma shapes your life.

Harvey  01:04

Wow. Who'd'a thunk it?

Pen  01:05

Like, the specific ways that Harvey and I are both like, "Hm, I do not talk about my feeling now. I will be suppressing."

Harvey  01:13

I will be perfect.

Pen  01:15

I will not burden anyone with my emotions.

Harvey  01:17

Never ever.

Pen  01:19

Which has...

Harvey  01:20

Which, believe it or not, that has the opposite effect.

Pen  01:24

Yes, dear listeners, as you might be able to do the math on, not communicating your feelings doesn't improve a relationship.

Harvey  01:33

The TLDR of the episode, at the beginning, is that not communicating your emotions makes it worse.

Pen  01:38

Yeah, yeah. It's - it causes further conflict if you don't talk about how you're feeling. It - conflict not necessarily meaning, like, anger, but rather, like...

Harvey  01:49

Disagreement...

Pen  01:50

Yeah. Well, a conflict in the opposite of things just going smoothly and well.

Harvey  01:55

Right.

Pen  01:57

Because Harvey and I not angy with each other.

Harvey  01:59

No.

Pen  02:00

No.

Harvey  02:00

Now, before we get ahead of ourselves, Pen.

Pen  02:04

Yes.

Harvey  02:04

Tell me...

Pen  02:05

Yes.

Harvey  02:06

...about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week. I'm not going to do the voice today. 

Pen  02:09

Why not?!

Harvey  02:11

Wahoo!

Pen  02:12

Why didn't you want to do it? Thank you for doing it. But why not?

Harvey  02:16

I don't know. I just didn't want to.

Pen  02:18

Well, I like - I like "Wahoo!"

Harvey  02:20

I know you do.

Pen  02:22

Wahoo!

Harvey  02:23

For better or for worse, I love you so much.

Pen  02:27

That's fair. That's - my stepdad used to say that, "I love you, despite of and because of yourself." I was like, that's fair, man. That's fair.

Harvey  02:37

Slash light hearted.

Pen  02:40

My Wahoo moment of the week - I actually... I was thinking about it.

Harvey  02:44

Oh!

Pen  02:44

Because, you know, we had - we had some time before recording.

Harvey  02:48

Because we planned ahead.

Pen  02:50

Yes, we did. Oh - we did, yes.

Harvey  02:52

We did. We did.

Pen  02:54

And I had a few, but I'm going to go with the most recent one, which is that after listening to some anime music yesterday - so sue me, it's just good sometimes - I was listening to some of the Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood music, and I was like, "Ah, shoot, this is good. Guess I have to rewatch the whole series again!" And so I have been, and it's really nice, and it makes me super happy. Cuz, um, I mean, it's one of my favorite shows, and there's that, but also - and like, you know, there's always more things for me to go into meta-wise, because that's just me as a person.

Harvey  03:28

Oh, yeah.

Pen  03:29

But I have a lot of nice associations with it. Like, my stepdad and I watched it multiple times. It's a show that he and I - and my mom - really like. There was actually one time when we... because we'd watch something in the evenings together before going to bed, and it was often anime, which I still think is funny.

Harvey  03:47

That is.

Pen  03:48

I got him into the volleyball anime.

Harvey  03:50

Oh, my God.

Pen  03:51

I got him into Yuri on Ice.

Harvey  03:52

Holy...

Pen  03:53

We watched Black Butler. [Laughter] Yes, you should laugh. It's deserved here. He and my mom still watch anime.

Harvey  04:01

And did you watch Voltron?

Pen  04:03

No.

Harvey  04:04

Okay.

Pen  04:04

No, I did - no. That's - no. Did watch the abridged version of Sword Art Online though.

Harvey  04:11

Really?

Pen  04:11

It's a good show! The abridged! The abridged, the abridged, the abridged.

Harvey  04:15

Yeah, I was gonna say, SAO Abridged is really funny.

Pen  04:19

SAO Abridged is so funny. I still follow it. Anyway! Anyway, um, there was one time that we watched all of... all of Brotherhood, and got to the end of it, and we were like, "What are we gonna watch next?" And put on the first episode of brotherhood again, and my mom was in the other room working on schoolwork, and she was like, "No. You're not watching it again. You just finished it. Pick something else." Like, you're not even watching it! And she was like, "I can hear it. You're not doing it." Like, fine.

Harvey  04:49

Excellent, excellent.

Pen  04:50

It was very good. It's very funny.

Harvey  04:52

That is really good.

Pen  04:54

So yeah, it's - it's nice, because I have so many positive associations.

Harvey  04:58

Definitely. No, that sounds nice.

Pen  04:59

Now, Harvey, tell me your Wahoo! Moment of the Week.

Harvey  05:03

Yeah, um, this week's honestly been pretty rough, so the - my Wahoo! Moment's going to be a little bit of a stretch, but I'm going to say, I have a gnarly ear infection.

Pen  05:14

No!

Harvey  05:15

But the Wahoo! Moment is that I'm on antibiotics for it. And the doctor said I should be feeling better today or tomorrow, I don't feel better today, so I'm holding out for tomorrow.

Pen  05:24

I hope that tomorrow hits. I mean, it could just be a Wahoo! Moment about how excellent antibiotics are, and how cool it is that that we have them.

Harvey  05:33

Yeah, and also how important it is to take the full course, because if you don't take the full course, you are breeding stronger bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics. Don't do it!

Pen  05:43

When a doctor prescribes you medicine and takes says take all of this medicine, do it.

Harvey  05:47

Even if you feel better, even if you think you don't need it, there is literally no benefit to holding on to antibiotics. Literally none.

Pen  05:55

It's also - that's actually, um, related to a neurodivergence thing that happens sometimes where people will stop taking their meds because they feel... because they're feeling better. And it's a really - it's an unfortunate thing, because, like, the reason that your symptoms are more under control is because you're properly medicated.

Harvey  06:17

I had that moment with therapy where I stopped - where I stopped going to therapy because I felt better, and then I finally had the epiphany of, "Oh..."

Pen  06:24

Ah, I feel better because I've been in therapy...

Harvey  06:27

...because I'm in therapy. That makes sense. Yeah, I

Pen  06:30

I did that a couple of times, too. It is not unusual, but it's definitely something to keep an eye on, I think, because there's - there is nothing wrong with needing to continue with thing. Mm-mm.

Harvey  06:42

Sometimes that's just a necessity. Definitely.

Pen  06:46

Oh, also, and we probably should have mentioned this before the Wahoo! Moment...

Harvey  06:50

Oh, yeah.

Pen  06:51

Though it, I suppose, will not be relevant if people are listening back to old episodes, but...

Harvey  06:56

True.

Pen  06:57

We are... and I think we posted this on social media already. Well, we will before the episode comes out.

Harvey  07:04

Yes.

Pen  07:04

So there's that. But we will be moving instead of a biweekly schedule...

Harvey  07:09

Ostensibly.

Pen  07:10

Bimonthly, I guess, to once a month releases because of life things.

Harvey  07:17

It's my fault. I'm busy.

Pen  07:19

Harvey's busy. Harvey's stressed. Harvey still in school and working a job, and, I mean, I'll tell you what, I am certainly... being disabled and working a full-time job just, for me, is also not easy. So...

Harvey  07:33

I'm also disabled.

Pen  07:34

Yeah, yeah. So like, it's all - it's all rough. We're - we're both... having extra time is... is nice, and we have, you know, we haven't been keeping perfectly to the bimonthly schedule anyway, so this is going to be better for releasing episodes more consistently.

Harvey  07:50

Yeah! We're hoping that it'll be as - in addition to being better for us, we hope that it'll be better for y'all too, so uh... so that y'all don't have to keep hearing the thing of like, "Sorry, we have problems."

Pen  08:00

Sowwy!

Harvey  08:00

Sowwy.

Pen  08:02

Yeah, and will give us a chance to also have quigher - ugh - higher quality in the episodes that we do release, which is always... always the hope

Harvey  08:11

100% quality over quantity.

Pen  08:13

Yes, absolutely.

Harvey  08:15

Good mental health content, not a lot of it. I mean, ideally, both. But if we have to pick one.

Pen  08:20

If we have to pick one, certainly, I'd rather it... and also not be at expensive of our own mental health, because that'd be wild.

Harvey  08:25

That would be, as we've said, before, antithetical to the whole point of the podcast. 

Pen  08:29

Yeah, that would be... every time it's like, "No, you can't - we can't."

Harvey  08:34

We can't do this. We can't keep doing this.

Pen  08:36

This is... the most extreme in my life example of do as I... of not wanting to do a "Do as I say, not as I do," when it's like, no, we're literally doing this podcast.

Harvey  08:47

It's like, at this point, we have to live what we preach.

Pen  08:51

Yeah.

Harvey  08:51

Otherwise, we are bad podcasters.

Pen  08:53

Yeah, that's just not a... a great. But yeah, it'll give more time for things, and as always, if you have a specific request...

Harvey  09:01

Please.

Pen  09:02

...that you'd like us to talk about...

Harvey  09:03

Please.

Pen  09:03

...let us know. It'll give us even more time to plan. I'd also love to, sometime, do an episode that is just listener questions.

Harvey  09:10

Please, please, please, I am frothing at the mouth for listener feedback.

Pen  09:15

Oh, yeah. Engagement sounds so nice. Give me those, uh... give me those dopamine buttons.

Harvey  09:20

Give me the dopamine hit, now please. You don't have to.

Pen  09:24

You don't have to, but it's always appreciated. Anytime we hear feedback from people, or when people share it with their... with their friends and such, like, that's wonderful. Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

Harvey  09:33

We've already been on every continent.

Pen  09:36

Yeah!

Harvey  09:37

But we should just keep spreading.

Pen  09:38

Yeah.

Harvey  09:39

But this decision to switch to a monthly arose from the conversation that we had last week that this episode is kind of based on.

Pen  09:48

Yeah! So it's related material.

Harvey  09:51

Talk about that. We actually did a transition for once. You'd think we'd be better at that.

Pen  09:57

Haha.

Harvey  09:58

Ba-dum-tshhh.

Pen  09:58

Funny joke, because we're transgender. You're transing my gender, Harvey.

Harvey  10:04

I... I think you transed my gender first.

Pen  10:07

That is actually... I think that that is...

Harvey  10:10

Actually, factually, I think that might be true. Anyway.

Pen  10:14

I do recall talking about that... having - having an impact

Harvey  10:18

Anywho...

Pen  10:20

Yeah, so we're not - we're going to discuss, you know, the the conflict that we had, but also in general...

Harvey  10:28

It was barely a conflict, but yeah.

Pen  10:29

The - conflict in terms of there was a problem

Harvey  10:32

That needed solving.

Pen  10:33

Yes.

Harvey  10:34

And there were negative feelings on both sides.

Pen  10:36

Not conflict isn't being angry or upset with each other, just conflict as in something happening.

Harvey  10:42

We're both traumatized, so we try not to yell at each other.

Pen  10:44

Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. Anytime someone raises their voice, I'm instantly, like, terrified.

Harvey  10:48

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. There's also the issue that I sound like a man.

Pen  10:55

That doesn't really... that doesn't actually come up for me.

Harvey  10:57

Oh, okay, good.

Pen  

But, yeah. So, we're, you know, going to talk about that, but also in general, both of us have... uh, it comes up for us in not bringing things up.

Harvey  11:45

Uh-huh.

Pen  11:46

It's... it's an issue.

Harvey  11:47

And also, you know, one of the things that we'll touch on, the way that both of us express our emotions is extremely different. Yeah, sometimes that's a good thing. Other times it clashes so hard.

Pen  11:57

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah... Kool-aid man.

Harvey  12:02

Oh, okay.

Pen  12:02

Yeah.

Harvey  12:03

Oh, yeah!

Pen  12:04

Oh, yeah, I like that.

Harvey  12:06

So where should we start?

Pen  12:08

Um, we could give the context of, uh... of the issue that we had, and then kind of build off from there. Sure. Typical ways that we both do and do not express our emotions.

Harvey  12:20

Yeah. Um, so we were supposed to record last week, and frankly, the deal was, I completely forgot about it.

Pen  12:30

Ah, yes.

Harvey  12:30

Completely and utterly forgot about it, because I have so many things going on in this little pea brain, and it just doesn't - it doesn't hold that much information, because it's not very good at its job, so I forgot. And I think when you mentioned it - because you asked me, like, "Hey, are you busy?" And I'm like, I mean, kinda, why? And you were like, "We're gonna record," And I'm like, shoot! Yes, we are. So you were kind of asking me like, "Well, we can record today, or we can record next week, it doesn't really - either way, it doesn't really matter to me," Which I didn't think was true. It - I actually, um, was genuinely fine waiting to record, because I knew I wasn't in the best mood. But yes, you're - you're right, that there - it wasn't as chill as I was, um......as you were making it out to be.

Pen  13:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Harvey  13:26

Something - something tipped me off and I got a little bit suspicious, so I continued to talk to Pen, just kind of trying to ease out, like, something's going on, I can tell without actually saying it. Because for some reason, I didn't just say it. I feel like I could have just said, "Hm..."

Pen  13:43

I didn't actually - I didn't realize that that was a part of it. Yeah, you can be blunt with me. I actually really like it when people are blunt with me.

Harvey  13:50

And I know this.

Pen  13:53

But oopsy-daisy!

Harvey  13:53

Oopsy-daisy. So eventually, I... at one point, I decided like, okay, this is going nowhere. We're talking in circles. So I cut the... I cut the crap, and I was like, "Okay, listen. I'm feeling really anxious about this entire interaction. I basically feel like there's something you're not telling me. I feel anxious about that. I feel anxious about the fact that I feel like I want to reschedule. Can I come upstairs and talk to you?"

Pen  14:21

I - I actually did not perceive all of those things.

Harvey  14:26

It was my thought process, at least.

Pen  14:28

Okay. That's - I mean, that's good to know.

Harvey  14:31

Hey, you're not mad at me, right? LOL.

Pen  14:33

LOL. Yeah. Was that a real question right now?

Harvey  14:35

Oh, yes, yes.

Pen  14:36

Oh, no. No, not at all. I just didn't realize that all of that went into it.

Harvey  14:39

Yeah, it was - it was a multifaceted thought process. There's also a little bit of it where I mentioned I was having a panic attack, which wasn't your fault. And you were like, "Yeah, I was worried that would happen." And I was like, [wincing] mm.

Pen  14:50

Yeah...

Harvey  14:53

Not calling you out on the podcast, I'm just explaining all the context.

Pen  14:57

No, of course. Yeah. And that is... that is also a complicated aspect of things.

Harvey  15:04

So, and then we go upstairs to talk about it. Uh... or I go upstairs to talk about it.

Pen  15:09

Harvey comes into my home.

Harvey  15:11

Into your home, and I eat all of your furniture.

Pen  15:16

The couch is already busted, so go for it, bud.

Harvey  15:19

Sick! But yeah, so I come up to talk to Pen, and I pretty much immediately burst into tears as I walk through the door. Um... and I don't know, I don't know how much detail we need to get into with the conversation. I guess I'd be curious to know what was going on on your end of things.

Pen  15:38

Ah, well, it was... I mean, it was a good idea to - to talk in person.

Harvey  15:44

These conversations rarely, if ever, go well over text with us.

Pen  15:47

No, no, it is useful to have the, like, in-person context. It makes it easier for... you know, to communicate, and also for me to understand what the heck is going on.

Harvey  15:57

Yeah.

Pen  15:57

Aand how you are feeling, because I just - you know, that is generally difficult to get across over text when we're both feeling calm.

Harvey  16:05

When we're both distressed, or one of us is distressed.

Pen  16:09

It's like, no, this is bad.

Harvey  16:11

Like, this is not working.

Pen  16:12

So that was - that was good. I was still kind of... what it was, is like, um, there was the underlying issue for me of feeling, you know, frustrated with with some aspects of it.

Harvey  16:31

Because I'm flaky.

Pen  16:34

Which is - I have very, very, very deeply-rooted trust issues.

Harvey  16:39

Which are not my fault, but still.

Pen  16:40

No. But like, it is a thing where I feel like I cannot - it is difficult for me to trust people, and also, I'm very, very sensitive to anytime that there are plans that have been - been made that don't follow up. And part of it is because I have ADHD, and like, because I'm aware that like, I'm not going to remember a thing, I back up things so much with, like, calendar reminders and whatnot. And so then there's a part of it that is frustrating, and like, "Okay, I have this problem, and I fixed it, how come...?"

Harvey  17:14

Some of it for me is just like it's not something that occurs to me. It's not an issue I deal with.

Pen  17:18

Which is - and that's fair. It's not a... necessarily a fair frustration that I have, but it is one that is there.

Harvey  17:23

But it's real. And I think it's fair to expect me to remember things anyway.

Pen  17:28

But yeah, so I had that. And I had been like, so hesitant to bring it up because I'm hesitant to bring any of my feelings up, because I never want to be... well, uh, my trauma word is inconsiderate, so I'm always fearful to bring things up. And because I understand the complications, I'm always like, "Well, no, but I get it. So why should I... like, it isn't their fault, so why do I need to bring up-" The answer is because I'm having emotions and should communicate them with the people I have relationships with.

Harvey  18:02

Because if you don't it gets worse.

Pen  18:04

Yeah. So...

Harvey  18:05

Like an infection.

Harvey & Pen  18:06

Hey!

Pen  18:07

Take your antibiotics, by which I mean, talk about your feelings.

Harvey  18:10

Yep!

Pen  18:11

And also, take your antibiotics.

Harvey  18:13

This is a really weird metaphor.

Pen  18:15

This is a weird metaphor, but both of them are good to do.

Harvey  18:19

Yes.

Pen  18:20

Um, yeah. So... so there was that factor of it was like, when I do actually talk about something that's been bothering me, it's usually because I reached the breaking point with it.

Harvey  18:30

And I think we caught it before that happened.

Pen  18:33

I was def- well, I was at the point of... when I actually bring something up, it's because I- it used to be when I hit my breaking point, it was like a break down breaking point. These days, when I hit the breaking point, it's when I consciously realize, "Oh, this is affecting my relationship with this person," at least in like certain contexts. With you, it was more like just the context of the podcast sometimes. And so it was - like, that was part of why it took a while to bring it up, because I didn't always think about it.

Harvey  19:06

Very situational.

Pen  19:07

But when I do realize, like, "Oh, this is affecting how I'm acting, and how I am... how I'm communicating things, then it's like, I need to bring this up, instead of when I feel frustration being like, "Oh, I should tell them about this."

Harvey  19:21

Right now.

Pen  19:23

"I should communicate my feelings now." It's like, when I reached the point of, "Oh, I should have brought this up like a few months ago."

Harvey  19:31

Yeah.

Pen  19:33

So that was what - that was what it was for me.

Harvey  19:35

Mm-hmm.

Pen  19:36

And then also, like, it's - it's good to know what's going on. So it's good to be in person, and then also, because that...

Harvey  19:44

Because then you got a sense of how frickin' stressed out I was

Pen  19:47

Yes, yeah. And it's harder for me to... the disconnect that happens when I'm not face-to-face with someone is significant, and like, I never know exactly how to talk about it, but how real they and their - like, how real it all is to me. I get... it's harder for me to perceive emotions, and also, like, interactions with, people when it's mediated like that. When there is that, like, barrier, so... so that's a part of it, too, is like, it's useful there. Like, it's not that I do not experience empathy either way, it's that, like, it's easier for me to empathize and truly, like, understand for it to click, when it's in person, and Harvey is crying in front of me.

Harvey  20:46

And it's like, well, there's, there's no making up anything in your mind as to what this really is. When Harvey is in front of you, sobbing.

Harvey  10:35

It's not even, like, making something. [Crosstalk] There's - there's a barrier, and then the barrier is removed. Sorry, that's not quite what I meant. But yes.

Pen  11:34

No, yeah. It's - then it is real to me, then I understand it. Because seeing you type, "I'm crying right now," is like, I understand logically that that's a real thing. It only sinks so far into my brain. But then you're crying in front of me, and I'm like, "Oh, no, my friend Harvey is crying. Oh, what can I do to help?"

Harvey  20:33

Yeah, right.

Pen  20:34

It's, so it's very different. And that's, that's part of why that was useful.

Harvey  20:38

Sure.

Pen  20:40

Yeah, so that was - that was me. That was where I was.

Harvey  20:44

And we talk about it and...

Pen  20:46

We discuss things like adults.

Harvey  20:48

Like adults. Who'd'a thunk it? Shockingly, we can communicate like adults, if we want to 

Pen  20:54

If we're - if we're feeling it.

Harvey  20:56

If we're feeling like it. And no, like, it was a useful conversation. It was - I feel I felt like, in the moment - like, I don't know, if I want to pay - a play-by-play of everything we talked about...

Pen  21:07

No, that's not necessary.

Harvey  21:08

No. And I think we just get too bogged down in the details. But I mean, it felt like, at least to me, a pretty fair back and forth of like, hey, I'm sorry. And also, this is what's going on with me, and this is what I need. Like, it felt like... none of that conversation to me felt unfair. It was one of the most functional conversations we've ever had.

Pen  21:34

Yeah, it was, um... among other things, it was genuinely a really good example of how far just you and I have gotten with each other. Particularly, I think, in how our emotions are different, and how expressing it is different.

Harvey  21:51

How would you say they're different? Because I know they are, but you're better at verbalizing these things.

Pen  21:57

Thanks. I talk.

Harvey  21:59

You talk good.

Pen  22:00

I talk... I talked good competitively. Won a few awards.

Harvey  22:06

And you're very cool for it.

Pen  22:07

Oh, thank you. That's not true.

Harvey  22:09

No, you're cool.

Pen  22:10

No being in forensics is a toxic trait.

Harvey  22:12

I'm the arbiter of cool.

Pen  22:15

Well, thank you, Harvey.

Harvey  22:17

You have to let me compliment you. Anyway.

Pen  22:19

No, I - hey, I talk good, but also, people who are in forensics deserve to be treated with suspicion.

Harvey  22:24

That's true. That's true.

Pen  22:26

Because a lot of us are like, eh, okay. Okay. I get it.

Harvey  22:30

But go on.

Pen  22:31

Yeah, yes, yeah. Tangents. But yeah, I think the biggest part of it, I think, is in how we, like, not just express, like, internal versus external, but also how we... this is gonna sound a little silly, how we feel our emotions. But there is like, a very real... for me, my emotions are intense, but they don't tend to be lasting in the same way. Like, sometimes when we have an issue, I know that, at least in the past, there have been times that, like, stick really hard for you. And for me, like, as soon as we address it, then it's over.

Harvey  23:21

Mm-hmm.

Pen  23:23

And that is... like, that is significant.

Harvey  23:25

And that's one of those things that has caused issues for us in the past.

Pen  23:28

Oh yeah.

Harvey  23:29

When you've been like, "Wait, this is still on your mind?"

Pen  23:31

Yeah. Like, it - cuz it genuinely just doesn't occur to me.

Harvey  23:34

And I've been like, [sniffling] yes?!

Pen  23:37

There have been so many times where you've said, or where, like, a mutual person in our lives has been like, "Yeah, no, I know that that's been really bothering Harvey," and I'm like, what?

Harvey  23:46

What do you mean it's been bothering Harvey?

Pen  23:48

But - because in my mind, it's like, "But it is over. It's done. There's..."

Harvey  23:53

And my anxiety means that I tend to ruminate, obsessively, just about every way that I've ever wronged someone, and how I'm a terrible person for it.

Pen  24:03

And that is... because there are some things that - that stick with me, largely because I don't communicate them, and so, I'll hold on to like a heart or in frustration forever because of that, but there's also, like, if there is a frustration when like, both of us are, like feeling really intensely and it goes a little bit bad, once I calm down, I've calmed down, and that's done. I know that is not the case for you.

Harvey  24:32

It takes me a long time to calm down from anything, ever.

Pen  24:37

Which is... which is like, yeah, that's totally - like, this is just a different thing between us.

Harvey  24:42

I have anxiety, and also terrible emotion regulation.

Pen  24:45

My emotional regulation is also bad, but the - this particular one is, like... like, it is an ADHD thing to feel things very intensely, but also to, like, turn on a dime.

Harvey  24:59

And one of the things about autism is extreme difficulty with communicating your emotions. Especially for folks who are non- or semi-verbal, because then you don't have the words to express your emotions, and well, that's another can of worms.

Pen  25:12

It is. Little worm can.

Harvey  25:14

Gross.

Pen  25:15

Yeah, definitely. That is... I think that's one of the most significant issues that comes up, is just because...

Harvey  25:23

Things last way longer in my mind than they do for you.

Pen  25:28

And particularly when that wasn't something I understood, that just naturally caused problems, because, like...

Harvey  25:36

Did you think I was, like, holding grudges?

Pen  25:38

No, it's - it wasn't that I thought you were holding grudges, it's that I didn't understand that there would still be an issue, or that there could be, like, a way that I should be, like, careful or... or gentle, or something, because for me, it was just done, and so I was like, alright, everything is normal and fine, and I will act the way that I would otherwise act, and I don't need to be worried about Harvey at all, because...

Harvey  26:00

...well, surely it's over for them, too.

Pen  26:02

Yeah.

Harvey  26:03

Meanwhile, I am sobbing in my bathroom eating out of a pint of ice cream. I've done that.

Pen  26:09

That's fair, I can't argue with that.

Harvey  26:10

It wasn't actually because of you, but...

Pen  26:12

I'm glad it wasn't because of me, but also, like, I get it.

Harvey  26:15

I think it was - I think it was a breakup, actually.

Pen  26:17

If there was ever a time to sob in your bathroom eating out of a pint of ice cream, that's got to be a breakup. Yeah.

Harvey  26:25

Mm-hmm.

Pen  26:25

But that is - that is a significant thing. Like, how long our emotions last, or the particular intensity. Because when you feel something intense, then, like, the intensity to my understanding, contributes to how long it lasts.

Harvey  26:41

Yeah, the intensity tends to mean that it lasts longer, and it also means that it takes a lot more out of me. Like, when we have - in the past, when we've had what I perceived a bad argument, and for you, it probably was not nearly that, I have been incapacitated for, like, the rest of the day.

Pen  26:58

Yeah, that is... that is the thing that I still have to, like, be reminded of. Because one, I tend not to perceive the arguments as much, because I'm aware, like, yes, I feel deeply frustrated right now in this moment. It's because I've - it's because it's in this moment, and then as soon as I've calmed down, it's like, okay, life is different now, and...

Harvey  27:20

Nothing has ever happened.

Pen  27:21

Yeah, and sometimes, depending on what the kind of thing is, it will affect me for the rest of the day, or... but also, it's pretty normal for me to be feeling a thing, and then one - one other stimulus happens, and I feel completely different.

Harvey  27:38

And I think - I think, too, the other thing that really separates the way that our emotions work is generally how we interpret and understand language.

Pen  27:47

Yeah, definitely.

Harvey  27:48

Because the big thing for me is that I can't read between the lines, it just doesn't happen. I need - I understand things in a very direct way, and I need to be told things in a very direct way. Otherwise, literally, I am not going to understand it even a little bit.

Pen  28:03

That is... you know, the funny thing is, that is something that we do, in some ways, share, because it doesn't occur to me to look between the lines for things. Which is... the absurd part of it is, I am logically very aware of the lines and what can be between them, and will in fact use that, in part because of, you know, conflict avoidance, that has gotten a lot better. But when you spend the formative years of your life desperately trying to present - prevent any kind of conflict in - in any aspect because you are terrified of what might happen, and failing, and being unwanted, and etc, etc., you're not as open about your feelings.

Harvey  28:50

Yup. You know, the other thing where this comes in is, with me having been abused, it's... I'm - as sort of a survival tactic. I try to be very hyper aware of how anyone could possibly be feeling based on their based on how they're speaking. The problem is I'm really bad at that.

Pen  29:14

That is something I - that I've -that we have discussed a little bit. It's a cruel irony.

Harvey  29:22

It's a cruel irony that I do that in order to survive, and also, I am awful at it because I'm autistic. Thank you, the combination of anxiety and autism. Horrible deck you've - you've handed me.

Pen  29:35

Yeah, it really is, um... it is such an unfortunate thing to be both, like, hyper aware of like, "Oh God, what could they possibly mean?" and...

Harvey  29:43

Drawing...

Pen  29:44

...your brain won't tell you.

Harvey  29:45

...drawing the wrong conclusion almost 100% of the time.

Pen  29:50

And, uh, I know it doesn't help but sometimes I - I have, like, a more flat tone, or will be like, I don't want to talk right now in this moment, or I'll take a while, like, between responding and things like that, and it means absolutely nothing.

Harvey  30:07

And I'm - but, literally every time that happens, I'm almost, like, legitimately on the verge of throwing up.

Pen  30:12

Oh, God, no!

Harvey  30:14

It's my anxiety the minute I realize, like, someone doesn't want to me, it starts to spiral into the, oh my God, everything is wrong. There's literally nothing I can ever do to fix this, and then it just... it's one of those things that - where my anxiety is the most severe, and I swear to God, it's something I'm working on, but...

Pen  30:32

No, that is - that's difficult.

Harvey  30:34

It's a really difficult cycle to break. [silence]

Pen  30:44

...is like, if you take a while to respond to me, one you typically apologize, and it, like...

Harvey  30:49

And you're always like, "What?"

Pen  30:50

Every single time I'm like, "Don't. Why?" And some of it is also, when I send a message, sometimes it's something where it's like...

Harvey  30:58

Look at it now, please.

Pen  30:59

It is... what?

Harvey  31:01

I just said, look at it now, please.

Pen  31:02

Oh, yeah, sometimes it's more of like - well, when it's an immediate thing, it's usually because it's like, do you want me to pick you up something from the store? Or something that is genuinely more time sensitive.

Harvey  31:13

And I miss those a lot of time, and I'm always like, "Aw, shucks."

Pen  31:16

And it's always like, that's fine. Like, if I really wanted to get ahold of you, I'd just call you or something. Um, and sometimes it's like, we could have a conversation about this right now, and um, I - where I'm like, I would like to talk to Harvey right now. But if you don't respond, then it's like, I will do something else. And otherwise, I just expect that there's going to be a while between messages. Because like, sometimes I don't want to respond to messages because I'm just not up for it, or because I don't have the time right then. So when you're like, yeah, sorry, I didn't respond, and it's been, like, 20 minutes, I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, what?!

Harvey  31:19

Right, right. Yeah, I mean, hey, another distortion of why these things just don't match up sometimes.

Pen  31:55

It just - I'm like... because I'm genuinely like, if I wanted to get ahold of you, if I needed to get ahold of you, I have other ways of doing it. And also, what, no, you can - you have a life, you get to take as long as you want between things. It genuinely is just... it doesn't occur to me ever, that there could be an issue there.

Harvey  32:15

And that is part of why I think this past conversation went so well is because I think we both went into it understanding that we probably were not on the same page.

Pen  32:25

And if nothing else, like, it wasn't... while, it was like logistically a bit... like, there were logistics attached to it, and there was also both of us having, like, trauma attached to it.

Harvey  32:39

Deep trauma.

Pen  32:39

Deep!

Harvey  32:40

Where I am terrified of ever being inconvenient to people. And some of this was, like,  this is why, um, we - I ended up being so flaky with our scheduling, because I was so afraid of ever telling Pen that I needed to do another time, that I would wait until the last minute. Which, of course, now that we've talked about it, it makes perfect sense that that would piss them off. But...

Pen  33:07

It didn't piss me off.

Harvey  33:08

But in the moment, it was very much a thing of like, if I asked this of Pen, they're going to be mad at me, and I can't have that, because I am scared when people are mad at me, so I am simply going to pretend it's fine until it's not.

Pen  33:21

And that's... I think the most unfortunate interaction there is, with me, my biggest problem is when people just don't communicate things to me, which is sometimes hypocritical. And that is - that is part of like, I'm trying to work on that, because...

Harvey  33:39

It's tough, though.

Pen  33:39

Just in general. And also because number one way to get me to work on something is to point out that it's hypocritical, because I hate that.

Harvey  33:46

And I never want to say it because it sounds mean, so I'm - I - you know, it's I'm glad that you know this.

Pen  33:53

Yeah, no, like, it's... it's real, and sometimes that happens, and it doesn't feel like, mean. And I would rather know, because it's so important to me to not do that.

Harvey  34:01

That's the other thing. Sometimes I don't communicate things because I'm afraid of being mean.

Pen  34:06

It's, uh... I appreciate bluntness, and I try so hard not to be an angry person. If something hurts me, then like, I'm aware that it's... like, it can come from a lot of complicated reasons. Hi, I have RSD. That's not the other person's fault.

Harvey  34:18

LOL.

Pen  34:21

But, you know, that - that is all to - to say, like, when some- my problem is when things aren't communicated to me, and I'm left, like, hanging or guessing, because then I feel like I can't rely on people, and like that is so deeply hurtful to me. Like, I - you know, on the one hand, I just don't ask people for help a majority of the time because I don't...

Harvey  34:45

Hey!

Pen  34:46

Like, I don't - I have trust issues.

Harvey  34:48

'ey, me, too.

Pen  34:49

It doesn't feel like that's something I'm able to do, but then what that means is, when I do ask people for something and it doesn't happen, that hurts in a way that nothing else does. Like, that is its own special kind of pain and disappointment, because of the deep-rooted trust issues rooted in trauma. And that's - that's what it is. But it does-

Harvey  35:09

Like, the remarkable thing about that situation is that both of us being upset had very little to do with each other.

Pen  35:17

Yes.

Harvey  35:17

Like, I was doing something that was bothering you, but the reason it bothered you really didn't have much to do with me.

Pen  35:23

No, not you specifically at all. That was like, it was not you, it was the way that that happened to interact with the thing. And the like - one of the - the most unfortunate things about it, particularly, and, you know, this is how - how complicated things can get, is I totally understand why you were hesitant to bring something up. And also, outside of things like, you know, the trust issues and whatnot that tend to burrow in a bit deeper for me, I try very hard to be a patient and understanding person, and I don't find it particularly difficult in a lot of ways. So if someone asks like, "Hey, can we set this thing up different?" or like, "I need to do something different," you know, sometimes, it might be more troublesome, especially if it's a repeated thing, but for the most part, like if someone explains to me, "Hey, I am having this issue. Can we change this?" I'm like, yeah, of course, why would that be a problem? It just - so-

Harvey  36:16

Well, and that's the thing, the reason why it becomes a problem in my mind is the off-chance that it actually is a problem terrifies me.

Pen  36:24

That is - and it's - that's fair. And it's- usually when there's a problem, it's because I have, like, something else going on.

Harvey  36:30

Right.

Pen  36:32

Which doesn't, you know, remove the feeling, but it's like - and I'm not saying this to blame you at all, because I totally understand it, but there is something almost funny about if you had been open about it, it wouldn't have bothered me at all.

Harvey  36:45

Yeah.

Pen  36:45

I would have been like, "Yeah, we can go to a monthly. Like, we should."

Harvey  36:47

No, and see, logically - logically, I know these things. And the other thing that starts to spiral with me, as I am aware of how irrational and unhelpful it is.

Pen  36:56

Yeah, that is... it is an awful thing of like, oh, no, logic can't fix this. Ah!

Harvey  37:03

And I think that's the - that's the wonderful thing, though, about - to tie this into neurodivergence and communicating emotions, it's the fact that you and I are both aware of each other now...

Pen  37:12

Yes.

Harvey  37:12

...that makes these things so much easier to work through, because I know that things don't stay in your head, and you know how horrifically anxious I am.

Pen  37:20

Yes, definitely. And also, like, in - in the way that we understand.. like, I know that you have such a hard time... not - like - getting things off your plate, and that, you know, you don't want to let anyone down and things like that, and, um, I'm over here with one of my primary modes of trying to get to - in how I care for people is desperately wanting to help. And so seeing like, Harvey is stressed. I want to fix it. I can't fix it. And so... [crosstalk] Can we do a monthly schedule? I'm like, one, yes, of course, obviously. Two, yay! I get to help make Harvey less stressed! This is a wonderful thing for me!

Harvey  38:06

Yeah. Um, and I don't know... I don't know exactly how to explain it, but I know that there are certain things about you that intrinsically I just know when I'm communicating with you. Could I verbalize them? Probably not. I'm a little bit stupid. But...

Pen  38:19

No!

Harvey  38:20

No, I mean that in like, in like a fun, lighthearted way. Like - like - like stupid in the silly way.

Pen  38:25

Well, I know, but that's not gonna stop me going, "No!"

Harvey  38:28

Okay, I don't I don't genuinely think I'm stupid.

Pen  38:31

Good.

Harvey  38:33

But you know, when I'm interacting with you, there are things that I just know to expect and things that I know I should be careful about. Especially the trust issues stuff, which is - and, like, you've told me before, that of the people in your life, I'm one of the more trustworthy people you know.

Pen  38:48

Yeah. Like...

Harvey  38:49

and so, when I know that I've broken that trust, it's been like, "Oh, no! No, I don't want to do that. I don't want to hurt you like that."

Pen  38:56

Which is - like, that is - that is wonderful, and I value that so much. And it's also, um - like, how it comes down is because I do not have that as much with you, because broadly, I haven't been able to trust you with things. Like, when I have asked, it's often worked out better, or even when it hasn't, like, I've been able to explain, hey, it is this. Like, um... I know when I, at one point, explained like, so the thing is, I don't ask for stuff, just as a rule, because I don't feel able to. So when I do ask for something, it is actually a really big deal.

Harvey  39:33

And I didn't know that. And then you did explain that, and I was like, oh...

Pen  39:36

Yeah, then it's like, that is such an important thing, because otherwise my reactions seem so disproportional.

Harvey  39:43

Because I'm much more inclined to - even though I'm not very good at asking for help, I'm much more inclined to ask for help for, like, little things where if someone tells me no, it's like, okay, whatever, that sucks, but...

Pen  39:53

And I - I'm, you know, getting better at it. But also, like, it just straight up won't occur to me. And so when it occurs to me, hey, I should ask for help, it's usually because it's a more extreme thing.

Harvey  40:01

Yeah.

Pen  40:02

Or it's like just this budding thing, but, you know...

Harvey  40:04

And that doesn't mean that I'll always be able to tell you yes, but I can at least take that into account.

Pen  40:08

Yeah. And so, you know, knowing things like that, and having that awareness certainly changes stuff. But you know, all to say, because we haven't had as many issues with it, that actually means it's easier for me when there is a problem. You know, instead of being like, but "I - I can trust Harvey so well, oh, it hurts so much." It's like, "Well, no, I can trust Harvey, broad strokes. This is an outlier."

Harvey  40:32

And - and that's a relief to hear. Because when I realized that, oh, shoot, I probably broke your trust, my immediate thought was like, oh, no. Like, this is 0 this is one of those really deep-rooted things for Pen, and oh, gosh, how am I going to be able to bounce back from this? Because I want them to be able to trust me.

Pen  40:48

It's actually - the problem ends up being, for me, when it's a compounding thing. When it keeps happening.

Harvey  40:53

So it's easier for you when it's an outlier.

Pen  40:55

Oh, yeah. Way easier. When it's an outlier, it's like, because I want to be so understanding, and also because, you know, I tend to... it takes me a lot to get to the point of thinking, "Hey, I have been treated poorly." That's also getting better, but-

Harvey  41:09

I like to think I treat my friends very well.

Pen  41:11

You do. But that's like... it takes so much for me to reach that point of being upset on my own behalf.

Harvey  41:16

Right.

Pen  41:17

Which is complicated. But there's also the part of it where, genuinely, like, I want to be understanding. I try to be an understanding person, I think I'm fairly good with, like, you know, the patience part of that, the - the adjusting part of that flexibility.

Harvey  41:32

It's definitely gotten better.

Pen  41:34

And I'm glad. And it's also - it's, like, a thing of, you know, like, if one thing happens that is unfortunate, my trust is broken one time, like, I can move past that. We just need to, you know, address it, and it's fine. When it's over and over again, it becomes so painful, because then it's like... I baseline don't trust people. So when I try to trust someone, and it gets broken over and over again, that is so much harder, because then I'm not getting any proof that I can trust them.

Harvey  42:05

Right. And you know, the nice thing about this past situation, too, was that there was just such a relatively easy solution. It's like, "Hey, Harv, can you write this down?" and I'm like, "Duh, of course I can." I've got calendars galore.

Pen  42:12

Yes. And it is, like, when I have that proof of, like, okay, yes, you did do the thing I asked. That is great. Awesome. I feel good now.

Harvey  42:25

And now instead of just like, oh, we'll do this every other week, it's like, every first Sunday, and I'm like, that's easy. I can remember that.

Pen  42:32

Which is, you know, that - that fixes it for me in a much more tangible way. Then it is, like, less of a concern. Like, one thing comes up, and I'm like, okay, we can fix this.

Harvey  42:40

That's the one thing that we do have in common that's great: We're action-oriented. 

Pen  42:43

Yes.

Harvey  42:44

We're very much like, what can we do?

Pen  42:46

Yes, yeah, definitely. And also, I think that we are both, you know... when we don't know - like, when something is explained to us, I think both of us have, um... are pretty good with like the quick, "Oh, okay, now I get it."

Harvey  43:01

Yeah, a lot of the time all we need is like, just, "Hey, this is what's up." And we're like, "Oh! Duh!"

Pen  43:07

You... you put in this one little puzzle piece, and it's like, my entire brain just, like, rearranged around it.

Harvey  43:12

And that's the fun thing about neuro divergence that I think makes communicating emotions difficult. You know, because when you are neurotypical, and obviously, I don't know what it's like to be neurotypical, so neurotypicals, correct me if I'm wrong, I guess. But...

Pen  43:26

Like, if y'all want to.

Harvey  43:28

If y'all want to. Can't... no, that's mean. And I'm not gonna say that. In any case, what neurotypical people have, is they have a fully-functioning brain that can create...

Pen  43:42

Must be nice.

Harvey  43:42

Right? That can create thoughts, that can express those thoughts in a - in a relatively functional manner. The issue with us is that we have major swaths of our brain practically non-functioning or missing, that make it substantially more difficult to do simple things like communicate feelings.

Pen  43:58

Oh, yeah.

Harvey  43:59

And I think the more that we've realized, and communicated to each other, which parts of our brains don't work terribly well...

Pen  44:10

Yes.

Harvey  44:10

...and how we, as individuals, can fill in each other's blanks...

Pen  44:14

Yes.

Harvey  44:15

...we - it really is sort of a situation of lifting each other up, and being able to help each other work through conflict. Ironically, our conflict is actually - it actually tends to be very collaborative.

Pen  44:25

Yes. Yeah. It's, um... which it - it makes sense to me. Particularly in, like... in how both of us work, and also, that is kind of my... it is such a - such a fundamental part of me, my belief that, like, if you are honest with people and communicating things, it will change them. And it will - it will make things easier because, so often, like, it is just a small miscommunication that is at the root of something. Or a big miscommunication, but you know.

Harvey  44:54

But once it's cleared up it - it's like, things then start to fall into place.

Pen  44:58

Yeah, and then things can like totally rearrange.

Harvey  45:00

The shame was it just took us a really long time to figure that out.

Pen  45:03

Which is... that is actually, I would say, comes back around to actually part of the conceit of this podcast. Which is, the more you understand yourself and your own neurodivergence, the more you understand your own brain. You can... your life changes.

Harvey  45:21

My life has changed substantially since starting this podcast, because I just talk about my brain more.

Pen  45:27

It's... knowing your own brain changes everything.

Harvey  45:32

And I feel like I know you a lot better.

Pen  45:33

Yeah, I think - I think that that is... which is - it's - it's wonderful. And I think that that's also, um - that is a... a kind of benefit of being neurodivergent, and particularly of being neurodivergent and knowing it, and having to be aware of... it's a side effect of, like, I have to be so aware of my own brain, because the neurotypicals won't stop knocking down my door and being like, "What's wrong with you? And I'm like, [stammering]" Neurotransmitters! You freaks have dopamine! What do you want?!

Harvey  46:05

Like... like, man, get some autism like the rest of us. Jesus Christ.

Pen  46:12

And, you know, having to be aware of that also means, like, understanding how you work better, and what you need better. And I think, sometimes, being a lot more able to understand other people.

Harvey  46:24

Being - learning to ask what - for what I need was so important to me. Because our relationship got so much easier, both when I understood more about how you work, and when I could actually directly say what I was thinking, because yeah, to your point, just having an explanation, and you're like, "Oh!

Pen  46:44

Yeah.

Harvey  46:45

Duh, like, yeah.

Pen  46:47

And then you know yourself, and you can be like, "Oh, that's what the problem is! Okay. I can fix this now." Like, I - I know there have sometimes been.. there have been things that are genuinely complicated in, like, my perceptions of things, and being like, "God, I feel so bad about having this problem," and then realizing I'm not just a huge jerk, like, there's actually... oh, there's a deeper-rooted issue of this. Like...

Harvey  47:09

And that doesn't mean that I shouldn't work on it, but...

Pen  47:12

Or - or like, um, when you shave, and I am... understanding why I would feel, like, a little bit uncomfortable and off for a few days, like, oh, I'm not just a huge jerk. I don't fully perceive people's faces most of the time. So when it changes my brains like, "Uh, who is that? Because it's not Harvey."

Harvey  47:31

Well, and the good news is that I really don't shave much anymore. So...

Pen  47:34

No, but like, knowing what it was, right was like, Oh, God. [crosstalk] I was like, oh, no! But this is Harvey's body, and Harvey's choice, and being like, oh, no, my brain just doesn't understand that people can look different.

Harvey  47:45

Yeah, yeah.

Pen  47:46

Okay.

Harvey  47:47

No, and actually, I have a similar problem. I just experience less distress around it, I think. Like, I have a hard time recognizing people. The good news is that you have stayed the same.

Pen  47:56

I... my hair changes a lot.

Harvey  48:00

But the style is the same. It's always dyed, and it's always cut in the same way.

Pen  48:04

That's the - that is the thing is like, for me, it is anytime anything more substantial changes. I vary between perceiving absolutely nothing, and perceiving the smallest changes and feeling like - but not consciously - subconsciously perceiving, like, even tiny changes, and my brains like, uh...

Harvey  48:24

What was that?

Pen  48:26

And I think it's because of, um... the thing of like, you know, with ADHD, you just stop perceiving that something's there, because you're so used to seeing it, and that's why, like, sometimes food will go bad or things like that, or you'll be like, where's my... where's this notebook? And the notebook has been on the table for the past six months, and so you've stopped knowing the notebook is there.

Harvey  48:44

You've just gotten used to it being there, and it's like, well, it's... it's just been there for so long that I don't really even think about it.

Pen  48:50

Yeah, so like, my eyes, just skip over it and don't tell my brain it's there. People, how they look, is also like that, so I'm like, "Yes, this is what Harvey looks like, and I understand how Harvey looks." And then you change like, one small thing, or like, my girlfriend cuts her hair or something, and my brain's like, "Uh... uh, that doesn't match." Like my eyes can't just skip over anymore, I am perceiving every change and I don't understand why.

Harvey  49:14

I dread the day I cut my hair short. That's gonna... that's gonna mess with you so bad. 

Pen  49:18

Yeah, for like two days.

Harvey  49:19

What if I give you advance notice?

Pen  49:21

It won't actually help.

Harvey  49:22

Okay. I guess I'll just do it that.

Pen  49:24

And after, like, a couple days, it will stop mattering to me at all, and I will, like, no longer be perceiving it.

Harvey  49:29

It's like, oh, yeah, Harvey's always had short hair. What are you talking about?

Pen  49:31

It's just... because of this - because it's a subconscious confusion...

Harvey  49:35

Right. It took so long for you to name it.

Pen  49:38

Yeah. Because I was like, why am I uncomfortable? That's so mean. No, the reason I'm uncomfortable is because I don't perceive anything. So when I'm forced to, I'm so confused.

Harvey  49:49

Right, right.

Pen  49:51

I can't remember why that was relevant. Oh, explanations of, like, when you understand yourself better, and then you can tell people and communicate your emotions in a way that actually makes sense.

Harvey  50:01

Well, cuz specifically with the - with the changing of, you know, expression, like, I used to really like shaving off my - my beard because I liked how I looked with just a mustache. And you did used to express like, kind of this discomfort about it and it used to, like really hurt my feelings because I was like, Well, that's...

Pen  50:19

Which is so fair, because it's not...

Harvey  50:21

And it's like, well, that's my decision, though. And then you were like, "Oh, no, it's because I can't figure out... my brain's like, what?" And I'm like, oh!

Pen  50:29

My brain's like, Who is that? Who is this stranger?

Harvey  50:32

So actually - and then I figured out like, oh, it actually has nothing to do about whether or not I have a beard. It's about how recognizable I am.

Pen  50:38

Yeah, it's like, if you never had a beard or always had a mustache, I would not have any issue. It's when literally anything changes in my brain's like, what?

Harvey  50:46

Who is that? Whom?

Pen  50:49

I know that that is Harvey, except I know what Harvey looks like.

Harvey  50:53

And that's not...

Pen  50:53

Don't ask me what Harvey looks like, because I don't know. But also, I know.

Harvey  50:56

But yeah, no, I think - I think that makes a lot of sense, and I think the - the more aware we become of ourselves and each other, really, the easier these things have gotten, and it's really only getting easier.

Pen  51:07

Yeah, yeah, cuz you know, more time goes on, the more you - you learn about yourself and other people and...

Harvey  51:13

And we spill our guts on this podcast.

Pen  51:15

Oh, yeah. It's the only mode I have.

Harvey  51:18

Oh, God, yes.

Pen  51:20

And... and that is where I think, sometimes, there's a benefit to like, being neurodivergent, communicating with other neurodivergent people, is because...

Harvey  51:28

We're always so aware all the time.

Pen  51:30

And have to keep learning it. And then when we learn it, we can communicate it like, oh, hey, I just learned this thing about how my brain works. And it's like, oh, okay!

Harvey  51:39

And it's not like neurotypicals where they're like, "Uh, okay?"

Pen  51:42

It's like, "Um, why didn't you know that before?" And I'm like...

Harvey  51:45

Well, now you've made me feel bad for this awesome self discovery. Eff you.

Pen  51:49

Why didn't you know it, okay? If you're so good at brains and having one that works, how come you didn't figure this out about me?

Harvey  51:55

Some neurotypicals can stay. We don't need all of you.

Pen  51:58

No. It's just that maybe you guys should just... less.

Harvey  52:03

Okay, but we probably should wrap up.

Pen  52:05

We probably should wrap up, yes.

Harvey  52:06

So Pen?

Pen  52:08

Yes, Harvey?

Harvey  52:09

Pen.

Pen  52:10

Harvey.

Harvey  52:10

Tell me about your closing thoughts.

Pen  52:14

Emotions are hard.

Harvey  52:15

Oh, god, yeah.

Pen  52:16

Here were some - here were some examples of how hard it is to communicate your emotions in, you know, ways that... obviously, this was about Harvey and I specifically...

Harvey  52:28

So not everyone's going to be the same. Of course not.

Pen  52:30

No, it is different for absolutely everyone. And as always, these are our truths and not the truth. That said, there are some aspects of what we talked about that are, like, very - are common, or can be reflected with, like, other people who have ADHD, or autism, or anxiety, or similar trauma experiences,

Harvey  52:54

Like abuse.

Pen  52:55

Like abuse. And having those kinds of implicit trust issues. So you know, if - if that is you, and if any of this has - has helped, perhaps if you have had moments of, "Oh, I don't just suck. That's just a thing."

Harvey  53:12

Like, my brain is just kind of bad.

Pen  53:13

And like, yeah, that's - that happens sometimes. And that's okay. And this is, you know... learning that means, now you have more options, and now you can communicate more easily, and that's wonderful.

Harvey  53:26

And you can keep learning how to be better to the people in your life.

Pen  53:28

And how to be better to yourself, and how to ask other people to be better to you. Because even when your emotions are complicated, you deserve to be treated well. Like, that is not - that is - that is still true.

Harvey  53:40

Yeah. 100%.

Pen  53:43

You cannot deserve mistreatment.

Harvey  53:45

No. Unless, you're, like, Hitler, or Donald Trump.

Pen  53:49

Or abuse children. And, like, you know, intentionally try to hurt children. Then like...

Harvey  53:55

Then I don't care about your feelings.

Pen  53:56

Yeah, like... eh. This is actually something that came up very recently with someone I was talking to, who has intense anxiety, is you cannot deserve fear. You can't earn fear. You shouldn't be afraid. Those kinds of things of like, it can be complicated sometimes. The negative feelings are not a deserved thing. You do not deserve harm.

Harvey  54:20

No.

Pen  54:21

Even when sometimes, like, it is valid for other people to be upset, that doesn't mean...

Harvey  54:26

That doesn't, then, give them the right to hurt you.

Pen  54:28

And it doesn't mean that you need to punish yourself. That's just... you know, you understand yourself better, you can communicate things to other people better, and also, on the other side of it, like, even if none of this reflects in you, if you know people who, like, might feel this way, or...

Harvey  54:45

If you or someone you know has been diagnosed with ADHD...

Pen  54:50

But yeah, if you know people who experienced some of the things that Harvey and I do, consider these things, you know? Maybe, like, talk to them. Don't just assume that they experienced the same things. But it's definitely worthwhile, I think, if you have... if you know someone, if you love someone with ADHD or autism.

Harvey  55:07

Which you probably do.

Pen  55:08

Probably - statistically, you do. And you... maybe, like, this can be an opportunity to talk to them and be like, do you experience any of this? And maybe the answer is no. And maybe the answer is yes. And maybe the answer is "Oh!"

Harvey  55:25

Yep.

Pen  55:26

And that can... that can really help, you know? Because conflict isn't always about the other person. Sometimes it's about your own brain.

Harvey  55:33

Yeah. Yeah.

Pen  55:35

So... so what's - Harvey, do you have any closing thoughts? Tell me.

Harvey  55:39

Yeah. I'm really grateful for you.

Pen  55:41

Oh, I'm grateful for you! You're my best friend!

Harvey  55:44

That's it. That's the thought. I'm just... I'm really grateful for the way that our relationship has developed, and how we are better to each other, and how we are better to ourselves. I'm glad that we can be real adults about these things now.

Pen  55:57

Me, too. It makes me so happy that now, when we have an issue that comes up, we can be so much more direct and functional, and, like, kind to ourselves and to each other. 

Harvey  56:09

Kindness is so cool.

Pen  56:10

Kindness is just wonderful and beautiful. And I - I've always really valued how, if I am honest with you, you always honor that really, really wonderfully.

Harvey  56:22

I try!

Pen  56:23

You're always very like, "Oh, okay, I know this now."

Harvey  56:26

Okay.

Pen  56:26

Thank you.

Harvey  56:27

Now it is in my brain. I have filed it away. That's in the Pen file.

Pen  56:32

That is - it is a wonderful thing to know that I can trust you with that, and like, tell you "Hey, this is the thing, and if it were different, then that would be cool." And you're like," Okay!

Harvey  56:39

Okay, that's simple.

Pen  56:40

And then you do have this really wonderful ability to just implicitly know people, particularly when, like, they have commuted a thing to you - communicated a thing to you, and like... you are very good with that sort of thing.

Harvey  56:56

Which is surprising to me, because I feel like I never know anything, so...

Pen  56:59

That is... that thing you were talking about, like, I can - I could not verbalize the things I know about you, but I sure know them. And I'm like, yeah, that is a thing. Like, you can't always say it, but like, dang, Harvey, you sure do know people.

Harvey  57:11

Yeah. Cool.

Pen  57:14

So yeah, this is... this is an episode that is about conflict, and in being about conflict is about kindness, and mutual understanding, and, uh, and love.

Harvey  57:24

Yeah.

Pen  57:24

So take that!

Harvey  57:26

Idiot!

Pen  57:28

We did queer theory.

Harvey  57:29

Whoa! All right. So stick around for just a few more moments. We'll tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is run. Kick it, Barack.

Pen  57:38

Okay. That's okay.

Harvey  57:40

I had to reference Homestuck. I had to.

Pen  57:42

Oh, God, it took me a minute to know. Oh... that's okay, Harvey. I still love you.

Harvey  57:48

I love you, too.

Pen  57:48

Because we're friends!

Harvey  57:49

Whoa!

Pen  57:50

I'm going to destroy you.

Harvey  57:51

That's fair. Beyond Introspection is an independently-run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at ByndPodcast, or you can email us at beyonddot - that's D-O-T - podcast@gmail.com. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description. Got feedback for us? Feel free to reach out on social media, or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.