BEYOND Basics - Fake it 'Til You Make it

In this episode, Pen and Harvey discuss the "fake it 'til you make it" method of building confidence, including personal experience, how effective it is, what makes it happen in the brain, and the best ways to utilize it.

Featuring: Sorry about that month long break!; A story about brains, a story about cells; Pen Does A Cool Brain Hack To Not Be Nervous At Speech Competitions; Is it egotism and arrogance or is it self-love?; Turns out "I'm going to be confident" is a pretty broad statement; Harvey Tells Us Four Major Theories On Emotion; Harvey gets tricked into loving themself


Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People: 

https://translifeline.org/

USA Suicide Prevention: 

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

International Suicide Hotlines: 

https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines

Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People: 

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/


Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:

https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte

Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:

https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/

https://stopaapihate.org/

Resources for US Immigrants:

https://www.informedimmigrant.com/

Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:

https://immigrationjustice.us/

Transcript

Pen: 0:12

Hello, and welcome to Beyond Introspection: a podcast where we talk about mental health, neurodivergence, and how it impacts literally every aspect of our lives.

Harvey: 0:19

All of them.

Pen: 0:20

I'm Pen.

Harvey: 0:21

And I'm Harvey.

Pen: 0:21

And this week, we're going to be talking about the idea of fake-it-'til-you-make-it confidence. Also, sorry for that unplanned month long break.

Harvey: 0:31

Uh, believe it or not, the trouble with two mentally ill people recording a podcast about mental illness is that, sometimes, we don't have the motivation to record.

Pen: 0:43

Sometimes we're just feeling really depressed and tired, which has caused delays before, but typically not this long. We might end up - jeez, because we're - we've been doing this podcast for almost a year, Harvey.

Harvey: 0:59

I'm not going to think about that.

Pen: 1:00

That's super, super, super fair. So, we might end up actually planning to take a month off in the future. And if so, if that plan comes up, we will, of course, let everybody know, via our Twitter and Instagram.

Harvey: 1:14

Yeah, generally, we intend to communicate these things, but sometimes depression happens.

Pen: 1:19

Sometimes it does a little bit, and that's - that's okay. We prioritize our mental health. Because, boy, this podcast would be weird if we didn't.

Harvey: 1:29

Yeah, uh, this is what comes up every single time we have to, like, delay recording because one of us isn't feeling up to it. But like, I mean, that would be sort of antithetical to the whole point of the podcast if we sacrificed our mental health to record it.

Pen: 1:42

Yeah, it wouldn't work good. Like, one of us is - the one who isn't feeling up to it is like, "Yeah, I'm really sorry," And the other ones like,"I mean, this is literally - this is literally about our mental health."

Harvey: 1:51

This is the whole point.

Pen: 1:54

So hey, Harvey.

Harvey: 1:55

Hey.

Pen: 1:55

You got a Wahoo! Moment of the Month.

Harvey: 1:58

Of the month...

Pen: 2:00

Because it's been one.

Harvey: 2:01

Huh. That's - that is true. Well, I am going to go back to "I'm seeing one of my partners," because in about a week... [Pen laughs] ...what?

Pen: 2:15

No, it's just funny. You're predictable, but it's sweet. It's nice.

Harvey: 2:19

Oh, my God. Because -

Pen: 2:22

No, it's sweet!

Harvey: 2:22

I know, I know. But because, in a week, my partner, who lives long distance, about 1000 miles away on the East Coast of the United States...

Pen: 2:31

Gosh, that's a bunch.

Harvey: 2:32

I know! ...is flying in to come to visit. So that's a little bit of a spin on the - on the "I'm going to see my partner."

Pen: 2:40

Yeah, no, that's super cool!

Harvey: 2:42

And then something - something other than boyfriend things, #JustBoyfriendThings, um, one of my favorite professors ever also agreed to to write a letter of recommendation for me for graduate school.

Pen: 2:55

Oh, she did?

Harvey: 2:56

She did!

Pen: 2:56

Oh, that's wonderful!

Harvey: 2:58

Yeah! Hey, isn't it messed up that I'm about to apply for graduate school?

Pen: 3:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're gonna apply for grad school before I do, in that you're doing it now and I still haven't made plans for when I'm gonna do it.

Harvey: 3:11

[Whining] I don't like that.

Pen: 3:12

Yeah, well. Oh, gosh. Wow. That would mean, for the first time, you would be, like, farther into your education than I am since we've met.

Harvey: 3:20

Huh.

Pen: 3:22

Congratulations.

Harvey: 3:23

Uh, thank you. I hate thinking about time and my age.

Pen: 3:27

That's a big, big mood. You know, every time someone asks how old I am, I still have to pause.

Harvey: 3:32

And like, think about it.

Pen: 3:33

I think that's gonna happen for the rest of my life. It's one of those #RelatableADHDMemes I've seen. So it's like, okay, yeah, I'm 22, gonna be 23 in a week, though.

Harvey: 3:44

Mm-hmm.

Pen: 3:44

Oh, my God. Six days?

Harvey: 3:48

Yeah, I think so. When I was looking at my calendar...

Pen: 3:50

Okay.

Harvey: 3:51

...when I was looking at my calendar, I believe so.

Pen: 3:53

Sure, that's real.

Harvey: 3:55

You know, I don't ever struggle to remember how old I am, entirely because I was born in the year 2000, so it's just a very quick, like, oh, okay, yeah, I'm whatever year it is.

Pen: 4:07

Babe, if you think I remember what year it is.

Harvey: 4:10

Oh, that's fair. I'm gonna have to keep doing the disclaimer that we're not dating because I don't know if you've called me, babe on the podcast before.

Pen: 4:18

I have started using more casual terms of affection for all of my friends and things because I think it's fun.

Harvey: 4:25

Oh, yeah. No, I agree. I love it.

Pen: 4:27

Thank you. I - yeah, sure. I ask you about your Wahoo! Moment, and then prep nothing for mine.

Harvey: 4:34

Yeah. I was just about to say, do you - do you have a Wahoo! Moment of the Week?

Pen: 4:38

Do I?

Harvey: 4:39

Or the month?

Pen: 4:39

Presumably I do. Oh! My dad visited - was - that wasn't last week.

Harvey: 4:48

Uh, yes, it was last week.

Pen: 4:50

Wow. That's super weird. Uh, but yeah, Luckydad lives in California. And so, you know, usually I visit at least once a year, but then COVID-

Harvey & Pen: 5:00

Hello?! COVID!

Pen: 5:03

...happened. So, haven't been able to see Luckydad since Thanks- no, it was, like, Christmas 2019. So it was super cool.

Harvey: 5:12

Yeah!

Pen: 5:12

And then my little siblings visited in last week, also! So it was like, uh, family time!

Harvey: 5:17

You like-

Pen: 5:18

This week, not the one before.

Harvey: 5:19

I'm sure you enjoyed that, but it was - it did seem like a lot on you.

Pen: 5:23

I was very drained. And even though, like, technically, I do - I do less than everybody else here. Like, my roommate, and you, and...

Harvey: 5:33

...my roommate.

Pen: 5:34

Yeah. But I'm not used to doing things every day anymore. And also, quarantine shot my energy levels.

Harvey: 5:43

Oh, same.

Pen: 5:44

So much. And so I'm like, on the one hand, it's been easier to recognize in myself, like, "You know, what? I am disabled, and I do - I do have a disability, and it affects my life in all these different ways. And some of it's chronic pain, some of it's ADHD, and et cetera. And on the other hand, wow, it does not take much to drain me. Oof!

Harvey: 6:04

Yeah.

Pen: 6:05

Internalized ableism really makes that one, like, hurt, too, because it makes me feel, you know, like, I'm messing up and useless and all of that. And then the other part of my brain is like, "If you're tired, you should rest."

Harvey: 6:19

Yes. And I agree with that mantra. We could go on and on about this one in particular, but-

Pen: 6:24

Which we will in a future episode!

Harvey: 6:26

We will in a future episode, but in the meantime, we should probably avoid getting too sidetracked.

Pen: 6:31

Yep, yep, yep, yep. It's been a month. We lost all our good habits!

Harvey: 6:35

Uh-oh! Uh-oh, sisters!

Pen: 6:38

Six and a half minutes isn't that bad for us.

Harvey: 6:40

No, no, we've gone longer.

Pen: 6:42

But no, we're going to talk about fake it 'til you make it as a concept for building confidence in a lot of different areas.

Harvey: 6:52

And this is not a method that I use, so I'm basically - this is basically just, Pen talks about their experiences, and I infodump about psychology.

Pen: 7:00

Which is thrilling. I love the part where you infodump about psychology. Tell! Me! A! Story! About!

Harvey: 7:06

Cells!

Pen: 7:06

Brains!

Harvey: 7:07

Oh.

Pen: 7:08

I don't know how much cells, specifically, are going to interact here.

Harvey: 7:11

You know, neurotransmitters are involved in pretty much anything the brain does, but it's-

Pen: 7:15

And a neurotransmitter is a cell?

Harvey: 7:17

Yes. It's a - it's-

Pen: 7:18

Or is it many cells?

Harvey: 7:19

It's a - well, I believe, don't quote me on this, I'm not an expert, but I believe it is a kind of cell.

Pen: 7:26

Tell me a story about cells!

Harvey: 7:28

And /the brain. We can - we can go with brain as a catch-all

Pen: 7:31

Brains catch everything. They're very squishy. The look Harvey just gave me. They had to look up, because they're playing a color puzzle on their phone for stim, which I totally get. So they haven't made eye contact with me this whole time. But after I said that, they looked up like, [sigh].

Harvey: 7:51

But pen.

Pen: 7:52

Yes.

Harvey: 7:53

Tell me things. Tell me a story about your brain.

Pen: 7:58

I have one of them. You have told me things about it. But also, I know it pretty well. Been - been in here a while. Knock knock.

Harvey: 8:04

Who's there?

Pen: 8:05

I hit my own skull. But yeah, yeah, so fake it 'til you make it as a form of, like, confidence building is something I've been doing-

Harvey: 8:14

Well, actually, brief pause.

Pen: 8:15

Yeah.

Harvey: 8:16

For anybody who's not familiar, what is the point - what does it mean to fake it?

Pen: 8:22

The concept is basically exactly what it says on the tin. Where you... oh, for example, the first time I consciously did it had to do with public speaking. And so I decided, like, okay, I'm going to act like I'm super confident doing this, and then eventually, I will essentially trick my brain into believing that I am super confident doing this, and then it will be true. So you kind of pretend at whatever it is you're trying to do until it becomes the case. Which is - it's not something that has, like, a 100% success rate and it is - there are other parts that go into it. But I've been...

Harvey: 9:09

It works for certain things and not others which I'll get into.

Pen: 9:12

For me, specifically, it's been in, like, confidence building, and self love, also, which is like - that's - it's also tied to the confidence. So first time I consciously faked it, and then made it, um...

Harvey: 9:28

Very poggers.

Pen: 9:29

Yes, I was - I was 17. It was my senior year of high school... oh.... six years ago.[Pen & Harvey groan] Um, but I guess maybe five - five years ago. It doesn't matter. It's weird either way.

Harvey: 9:47

Mm-mm. No math. Not on this podcast.

Pen: 9:47

It was the first year that I did competitive speech. And

Harvey: 9:50

Can I just take a brief aside to say that, like - okay, actual public speaking, like - I talked about this in the episode on social anxiety - like, actual public speaking. once I'm up there, it's not very difficult for me. But there is definitely like, some anxiety, and then ev n more than that, there is li e, you know, in a speech me t, you're walking between plac s, and you have to act - you k ow, hopefully you're ac ing confident in all of the spa es between the times when you re actually just talking. And t at was the part that I had m re difficulty with, and then, ike, getting up there, and not being nervous when I was lit rally being judged. Like, ther were judges in front of me, and I could look at them, an they were judging me, 'cause t at's t I don't mind a judged speech competition. I hate that you are expected to be on it the entire time. I - it feels genuinely abusive.

Pen: 10:41

It's - you know what it is? It's something that's sort of based on concepts of communication that I imagine are also potentially mirrored in either psych, or soc, or both, wherein people's perceptions of you, you know, obviously impact you the entire time. And so, if you act confident outside of the time when you are speaking, people will perceive you as more confident and put together the entire time. It's part of the kind of concept of, like, wearing nice clothes to an interview, and that sort of thing, where people's, like, kind of subconscious perceptions of you, or more conscious perceptions of you, then fill into the entire thing. So, it is kind of a society-based thing that works on both the conscious and subconscious levels that is also entirely made up, and the reason that it keeps working is because we keep expecting it to work. So it's something that's both like, well, this is just kind of built into us, and, I mean, we could just stop.

Harvey: 11:44

We could just - we could just decide that the way that somebody acts outside of a speech competition has nothing to do with how well they do in the competition, but, whatever.

Pen: 11:52

So it's like - it is a dual thing. I remember, there was a speech competition that I did in college, and it was a week that I was sick, which - it was around the time that I have that cough.

Harvey: 12:05

Oh, no.

Pen: 12:05

Yeah, the one that broke a rib or something. Who knows? Someday I'll get an X-ray. And I didn't make it to finals, and I remember seeing the postings and, out loud, being like, "Oh, thank goodness," because I was tired. And my speech coach was like, "Don't let anyone hear you say that?" And I was like, "Why? I didn't want to do it. What is your point? Hey, we're at the end of the meet. I didn't make it to finals. Done."

Harvey: 12:29

I'm not going to compete anymore. Who cares?

Pen: 12:31

Yeah, like, I'm just gonna go see one of my teammates and chill.

Harvey: 12:35

But anyway, speech tournaments.

Pen: 12:36

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So, I was, like, trying to build up that confidence and I decided - I don't remember exactly when I decided - like, okay, you know what? I'm just gonna act like I'm confident. I'm gonna act like - like, I'm fine and I'm owning it. And I did. And it worked. And I did get a lot more confident in, like, public speaking, and also, you know, how I was presenting myself and holding myself throughout the entire thing. Like, nope, I know what I'm doing. And it worked. And that's - when it worked, I realized, like, I can apply this to other areas of my life also.

Harvey: 13:10

Money can be exchanged for goods and services.

Pen: 13:13

And I think the next time it really came into play, like, significantly, was actually when we met. We met and we were in a group living situation.

Harvey: 13:25

And we've totally told the story before but still.

Pen: 13:27

And it wasn't, like, the moment that we met. It was like, what happened around then, you know, I was, for the first time, really surrounded by people who just understood parts of me and were kind of unconditionally supportive in ways that had just not happened before.

Harvey: 13:39

We were just vibing.

Pen: 13:40

We were. And we, like, understood each other very well, because a lot of us were neurodivergent. And also, most of us were trans, and that definitely helped.

Harvey: 13:48

Oh, yeah.

Pen: 13:50

And I would do things like say "I'm very funny," as, like, kind of a joke, but also everyone would, like, agree and be like, "Yeah, Pen, you're really funny." And it was a way of like, I'm saying this and it is being affirmed, and, like, I'm acting like a much more confident in myself, in part because these are new people, and I want so badly for them to think that I'm cool, and then having that affirmed. That - that feedback loop just made it more true where I started to believe like, yeah, I'm funny and cool, and people like being around me. And that's something that I still do. I think I'm actually - I've accidentally made myself a little bit of a - of an egotist.

Harvey: 14:30

Just a touch, but I still love you.

Pen: 14:32

Thank you. I've decided - I decided over the course of the past couple years that I am very cool, and I say cool things, and am just - I'm very cool and I'm very worth being around, and that has actually really, really helped my self-esteem in, like, saying it out loud and having people affirm it, and then deciding, like, nah, actually, I'm - I'm just pretty rad. And then it's harder for me to get, like worried and anxious about like, well, I mean, what is this person thinking? It's like, well, if they don't think I'm cool, it's because they're wrong. And like, I first started saying things like that as a joke, and it's still kind of a joke, but I also believe it now, at least partly, which genuinely super nice, especially for someone with debilitating social anxiety.

Harvey: 15:20

I bet.

Pen: 15:20

Where it's like, hey, if that person is judging me for whatever I did, it's like...

Harvey: 15:24

Well, that's on them.

Pen: 15:24

That sounds like your problem, not mine. It's also been a little bit helpful in gender presentation when I have the confidence to be like, I mean, if you think I look like a woman right now, then it's your fault for thinking looking cool means looking like a woman. Like, okay, can we move past this? Please? Like, yeah, I look rad. If you see that as feminine, get over yourself, question mark?

Harvey: 15:45

Maybe challenge your worldview?

Pen: 15:47

Okay, that's fine. I don't know why you want men to look boring. Not my problem.

Harvey: 15:55

Me, a boring looking man-adjacent person.

Pen: 15:58

You're not boring looking.

Harvey: 15:59

Just a little bit.

Pen: 16:00

No, you're fun! I like you!

Harvey: 16:02

Well, I-

Pen: 16:03

Sometimes you wear things that are decidedly not boring. Sometimes you wear things that have prints that I'm going to call fun.

Harvey: 16:12

Is this - is this coded for ugly?

Pen: 16:14

No, it's coded for, like, sometimes you wear dad clothes.

Harvey: 16:17

Oh, I totally do. 100%.

Pen: 16:18

And sometimes dad clothes are kind of silly.

Harvey: 16:21

Er, yeah. I think - I think classifying my wardrobe as silly is fair.

Pen: 16:24

I really like it, though.

Harvey: 16:28

Pen and I, I think, are a very fun example of opposites attract. Because I think-[laughter]

Pen: 16:33

Again, we're not in a relationship!

Harvey: 16:36

Yeah, no, just "attract" in the sense of, like-

Pen: 16:38

Yeah. Yeah, no, like, around each other.

Harvey: 16:40

Like friendship, yeah.

Pen: 16:42

Friends is when you have a bud.

Harvey: 16:43

This is friends. Because like, I would generally consider myself rather humble. My self-esteem is actually a lot better than it used to be, but I would generally consider myself a very, like, kind of humble, sort of down-to-earth person. And that's not to say that you, like, don't have your moments you totally do. But yeah, there is definitely, like, that, "No, I'm fantastic," and I love that for you.

Pen: 17:04

Thank you! I - I do try to view myself very honestly, whenever possible. Like, I - it has always been important to me to know myself.

Harvey: 17:13

Oh, yeah. And that's why your slight egotism isn't a problem, because you're not, like, delusional about who you

Pen: 17:17

No, like, I try to be very aware of my own flaws, as well. are. Like, that's important to me. I want to view myself realistically. I also know my own worth, and I know that I make very cool things, and I say very cool things, and, like, if you don't vibe with me, sometimes people just don't vibe together, and that's fine, and if you don't think that I'm very cool, well, like, again, that's not my problem. Like, I am very cool, and that's okay. If you - hey, if you don't think I'm very cool, it's okay to be wrong sometimes. We're all wrong sometimes. And that's, like - 75% of that as a joke. The 25% that isn't is so good for my sel-esteem. It's like....

Harvey: 17:53

Absolutely.

Pen: 17:53

It's fantastic. Also, I trust my friends to tell me if I ever get into the side of hubristic that's like, okay, Pen. I need you to stop talking right now.

Harvey: 18:00

Pen, please. Pen, God.

Pen: 18:01

Pen, Pen - okay, hey, Pen? I think you have stepped over to the side of comms majors that you hate, and I need you, just for your own, like - I'm going to help you with your self love here.

Harvey: 18:13

I hope to God I never have to say that to you.

Pen: 18:15

I hope to God, you never have to say that to me. I would hate that so much. And you know, that's - that's where we got it.

Harvey: 18:21

Yeah.

Pen: 18:22

But I think the area in which the fake it 'til you make it has actually been, like, the biggest, and also the hardest, has been in how I've used it directly with my mental health.

Harvey: 18:35

Yeah?

Pen: 18:36

And I have, actually, an example. It's something that I've talked about with my roommate a few times, because sometimes she's been. like,"Hey, yeah, I love - I love your self confidence there." And I'm like, legit, it's - it's fake it'til you make it. Like, I just repeated this enough times until I believed it was true. And a very recent example of that.. Oh, gosh, which Discord channel is it in? Oh! There we go, yeah. It was - the other day, you drove me to what was going to be an MRI...

Harvey: 19:09

Oh, yeah

Pen: 19:10

...and then we went to the wrong building. And it's the kind of thing that like - like, I understand completely how - how the mistake happened, because there's like a couple of different places, and I gave you the wrong address. And then I had to - like, I wasn't able to get the MRI that day.

Harvey: 19:21

Right.

Pen: 19:22

A few years ago, that would have made me feel like a complete idiot, and I would have gotten down on myself a lot, and I would have had, like, just a straight trauma response to it. Like, it would have been really, really tough, and there was definitely still a part of me that was like, that was a stupid mistake. But a much bigger part of me was like, I mean, it was also an understandable mistake. Like...

Harvey: 19:43

Yeah, no, and I was very much in the camp of like, "Yeah, stuff happens, like..."

Pen: 19:47

It's okay. And I think, at the core of myself, I've always been the kind of person who wants to just let those kind of things slide off. But that's taken a lot of work. And so, we were talking about it in the Discord, and I said, "I feel a bit foolish, but also, it's not a surprising mistake. And you know, I always hated feeling stupid about these things. So instead, I think, perhaps, I will not."

Harvey: 20:10

Which is, one, just a very funny way of wording that

Pen: 20:13

Oh, yes, thank you. That was part of why I put it that way. And my roommate said, "I love the confidence in that last line," and I was like, yeah, that's - that's fake it 'til you make it, baby. Like, that is deciding, actually, I'm not gonna feel stupid about this. It doesn't work 100%. There is still a part of me that feels a little bit stupid. But also, the idea of, like, but I don't like it.

Harvey: 20:34

Yeah, I think - I think the biggest thing to keep in mind about the fake it 'til you make it approach is that there is really no failure in it. It's not just, like. you believe this thing, and then it's like, "Oh, well, you don't actually believe it? Well, that seems like your problem." It's sort of like, I mean, yeah, no, I mean, you've been thinking this way about yourself for years and years. Of course, it doesn't feel genuine or natural right away.

Pen: 20:55

Yeah. Like, the idea of it is you know it's not true right at the start, but if you repeat it enough times, well, then it can become true. And it has been super helpful for me, and also, I think makes me a funnier person, because now I say silly

Harvey: 21:09

You do say silly things. And - and definitely, the - just things. the brash egotism sometimes is just hilarious.

Pen: 21:17

Oh, yeah, thank - that's part of the reason I do it. And like, look, if I'm going to be confident and decide that actually, I'm a super worthwhile person, and nothing about my past necessarily defines me now, and I can always improve, I am worthy just as I am, I don't owe anybody anything, and especially my own pain. Like, no, I get to be happy.

Harvey: 21:39

Yeah, and that's real stuff. That's real.

Pen: 21:42

Like, I get to be happy. And you know what? I'm going to be. And that doesn't fix it. That doesn't make me happy right away. But it does give me, like, I'm going to do this now. And there's a lot of - like, there's a lot of power in that.

Harvey: 21:56

In a way, it gives you permission, doesn't it? To be happy.

Pen: 21:59

And that can be - and, again, this isn't for everybody, but for me, it's been like huge to just decide, you know what? I'm going to do this. And very literally, no one can stop me.

Harvey: 22:11

Mm-hmm.

Pen: 22:12

So have fun everybody! Enjoy the show.

Harvey: 22:15

Good luck, LOL.

Pen: 22:17

Yeah, so, that is my kind of overview of what I have done and why I have done it. Harvey, will you told me a story about brains?

Harvey: 22:26

I will tell you a story about brains.

Pen: 22:27

Thank God.

Harvey: 22:30

I just say no and we end the episode.

Pen: 22:33

Alright, folks. Well, sorry you waited a month for 20-minute-long episode.

Harvey: 22:37

Alright, so stick around. Um, no, but legitimately, that - I was doing some - so, I don't do the fake it 'til you make it thing. It has always made me just uncomfortable, and like, it felt disingenuous, so I was like, eh. But I am - I like to do research, and I like to - and I like to understand how the brain works. So there's a couple things that I found out. Research on - when you look up things about the fake it 'til you make it approach , you get some really - you get some really, like, kind of varied perspectives on what it works.

Pen: 23:20

That sounds true.

Harvey: 23:21

Broadly speaking,[stammering] the psychological community generally agrees that, yes, in specific circumstances, this does work. But then, when you start getting into the business side of things, because, you know, combatting imposter syndrome, and...

Pen: 23:38

Oh, yeah.

Harvey: 23:39

...confidence in yourself can be, like, a really divisive issue in things like business. So, you know, fake it'til you make it works for some people, but not for others. So then, you've got the range between like, "Fake it 'til you make it totally works, 1nd here's how you can do it!" And other people being like, "This is complete garbage, and here's why you shouldn't listen to it," so...

Pen: 24:01

Well, that's not...

Harvey: 24:03

Even though - even though psychology says that it does work in certain circumstances, you know, the - the experience of it not working is very real.

Pen: 24:12

Mm-hmm. For sure.

Harvey: 24:13

And as I was doing my research - you know, this isn't a foolproof, 100% of the time this is true - but generally speaking, research has found that the fake it till you make it approach works almost exclusively, but generally best, when you have a specific goal you're working toward. And when I say goal, I do mean something actionable. Something about your behavior that you can change right now.

Pen: 24:39

That makes - that definitely aligns with all of the ways that I've used it.

Harvey: 24:44

Yeah, that's - that's the thing. Um, you know, so if someone's just like, "Okay, I'm going to be more confident," and then they just, you know - if, maybe, the way that they approach that is just believing like, "Okay, I'm confident, I'm confident, I-I'm confident," that is ain't going to work.

Pen: 25:01

No.

Harvey: 25:02

It - and I'll - you know what? This would be, I think, a good time to explain a couple brain things. A couple - a couple princples.

Pen: 25:13

Woo! Brains!

Harvey: 25:14

So the first thing that I want to explain is the Hebbian Principle, and-

Pen: 25:19

I have never heard of that before.

Harvey: 25:20

Yeah, it's - it's actually - it's a very simple concept. It's something that we've actually discussed on this podcast before. It's just we didn't use the name. So this was-

Pen: 25:28

This was Hevian?

Harvey: 25:29

Hebbian, mm-hmm.

Pen: 25:30

Hebbian. Okay.

Harvey: 25:31

Coined by Donald Hebb, he was...

Pen: 25:33

Hebb.

Harvey: 25:34

...he was a neuropsychologist.

Pen: 25:35

I like his last name. It's funny.

Harvey: 25:37

Yeah, H-E-B-B.

Pen: 25:38

Hebb.

Harvey: 25:38

Hebb. Yeah, no, so Donald Hebb was a neuropsychologist, and he proposed this principle: basically that, when certain brain structures,and when certain brain paths fire in tandem with one another, eventually they will continue to create those circuits. It has everything to do with neuroplasticity.

Pen: 25:59

Oh, so, like, the... you repeat a pathway enough, and it just is?

Harvey: 26:03

Exactly.

Pen: 26:04

Yeah!

Harvey: 26:04

Basically, uh, there's a there's a little adage they came

up for that: 26:08

what fires together, wires together. So that's one thing that's important in understanding how this works.

Pen: 26:15

Yep.

Harvey: 26:16

The other thing is, I actually want to explain four - and I'll be quick about it - four of the major theories on emotion and how that...

Pen: 26:24

I'm so excited.

Harvey: 26:25

...happens in the brain.

Pen: 26:26

And I mean that genuinely.

Harvey: 26:27

Well, thank you. So the James-Lange theory essentially posits that your body has a physiological response to a stimulus., and from that, it informs an emotion. So essentially, you see a snake you start to tremble, and then your brain goes, "Oh, this is fear. I'm experiencing fear."

Pen: 26:46

Oh, okay.

Harvey: 26:48

And that's - that's, like, an instantaneous thing. Like, it sounds more deliberate, but...

Pen: 26:53

I see a snake, I start to tremble, and my - the experience, the emotion that my brain gives me, is cool. I'm experiencing the emotion "cool."

Harvey: 27:03

So then, there's Cannon-Bard, which essentially

says the opposite: 27:07

that you see a snake, you feel fear, and then you start to tremble, because it's like, this is the physiological response that happens when you experience fear.

Pen: 27:16

Okay.

Harvey: 27:17

There is, then, the Schachter-Singer theory, which, that one, I believe is typically more widely used. And that one is sort of like both/and, wher it's sort of like, yes, ther are certain - there is som evidence to suggest that th physiological response you hav to something does cause a emotion, but emotion can als cause a physical reaction. An then, the facial feedback theor is another interesting one

Pen: 27:52

That's the only one that's not people's names.

Harvey: 27:54

I think there is an alternative that does refer to as a name, but that's how it's best known.

Pen: 27:59

Well, yeah, because descriptive things... anyway.

Harvey: 28:01

Facial feedback essentially says that certain facial expressions are associated with specific wiring in the brain that leads to feeling and emotion. So, those are kind of the basic ones, and I just like to explain those because they're just - we really, in psychology, we do not agree on where emotions come from, where they start.

Pen: 28:25

That's one of my favorite things about a field that relies so heavily on, like, the brain, or on things that are so intangible is like, I mean, we keep arguing about it, because there's literally no way to know for sure.

Harvey: 28:35

Yeah, you know, we can make inferences from brain scans and from behavior, but it is very difficult to know for sure. So, all of - I bring all of this up, basically, to discuss this idea that fake it 'til you make it has to do with some of these- one, of course, with the Hebbian in principle, because you need - eventually, what's - actually I'm going to use an example that's been happening in my own life lately.

Pen: 29:01

Whoa! Real life examples!

Harvey: 29:04

Real life examples! And actually, this is something that somebody has been doing to me...

Pen: 29:08

Oh, right!

Harvey: 29:08

Rather than - rather than me doing it to myself. So, this is - I cannot believe I'm about to talk about this on a podcast, because I carry so much shame about this particular thing. So - so I have several partners, as I've - as I've mentioned before, I'm polyamorous, and one of them has taken to what I've - what I have coined Pavloving me into loving myself.

Pen: 29:36

God, that's one of my favorite things you've ever messaged me.

Harvey: 29:38

And basically what I'm saying with that: Pavlov did a very - did a very famous study.

Pen: 29:47

Dogs.

Harvey: 29:47

Yeah, the dogs were given food, bell was rung whenever they were given food, and eventually they started to salivate at the sound of the bell, because those - because the food and the bell were consistenly paired together.

Pen: 30:01

Yep.

Harvey: 30:01

That is classical conditioning, and if you think about it, that's basically what fake it 'til you make it is.

Pen: 30:06

Yep.

Harvey: 30:06

It's - It's essentially a form of classical conditioning.

Pen: 30:09

It's a trick.

Harvey: 30:10

It is literally just a little - little trick you play on your brain. So, my - one of my partners has been, quote unquote, Pavloving me into loving myself. And the way that this has been happening. Um, so I quite like being tickled. It's just sort of a - it's just sort of a form of affection that I like to receive. Makes me happy.

Pen: 30:32

You tickle someone, they go, hahahaha.

Harvey: 30:35

Thank you, Pen!

Pen: 30:35

Yeah, no, I mean, like, that's a nice thing, is when someone goes hahahaha.

Harvey: 30:38

Yeah, no, that is an expression of joy. And that's-[Laughter]

Pen: 30:45

See? It is! That brought me joy!

Harvey: 30:47

I had a little autism moment. But anyway, sometimes I just say things very - very plainly.

Pen: 30:54

It makes me so happy.

Harvey: 30:55

And anyway, so, some of- some of what this particular partner has been doing is he has been - nothing brought this on, this was a very spontaneous thing that he did - he decided to make me say nice things about myself while he was tickling me. And it's ridiculous, but...

Pen: 31:14

Oh, dang, that's genius. I love that.

Harvey: 31:16

No, it's super smart...

Pen: 31:18

That rules!

Harvey: 31:18

Because - because now there is actually a positive association with - with positive self talk.

Pen: 31:25

That is so good.

Harvey: 31:27

It's super silly. But - but all of this to say: that's sort of the - that - I think that illustrates the principle of what fires together wires together.

Pen: 31:34

Yeah!

Harvey: 31:34

I now associate saying nice things about myself with something that makes me happy. Something that releases - here, I get to talk about neurotransmitters here - oxytocin, which...

Pen: 31:45

Ah, I've heard of that one.

Harvey: 31:45

Yeah, it's a - it's a hormone that promotes bonding among people, happiness....

Pen: 31:50

The hugging one!

Harvey: 31:51

Yeah, the hugging one.

Pen: 31:53

Oh! That's - when dogs look at you in the eyes, it releases oxytocin in their brains. It'z like a hug.

Harvey: 31:59

Yeah, exactly. So positive self talk for me is - is associated now with the release of oxytocin, so it feels better.

Pen: 32:09

It genuinely is Pavloving you into loving yourself. Dang, I love that so much.

Harvey: 32:14

Right?

Pen: 32:15

It's so good.

Harvey: 32:17

So that's - that's sort of the principle that fake it'til you make it works by. You do this sort of positive self talk, trying to convince yourself of a particular thing. And it works, like I said, when you are working towards something specific. So in your case, you wanted to more or less feign confidence...

Pen: 32:43

Yes.

Harvey: 32:44

...in public speaking, and there's - you know, that may sound like an abstract concept, but if you start to break it down, you know, feigning confidence in public speaking could look like standing up straight...

Pen: 32:54

That's exactly-

Harvey: 32:55

...projecting your voice.

Pen: 32:56

That's exactly what it is. In, like, a lot of the ways that I have done, like, the fake it'til you make it, it's been with the knowledge of what it looks like, and what I'm working towards. Like, being confident in the scenario of a place where I'm going to be judged the entire time means, you know, presenting a confident exterior.

Harvey: 33:17

Right.

Pen: 33:18

Not feeling super trembly inside, walking around like I know what I'm doing. So there are these actions that I'm taking over and over again, until I'm not consciously taking those actions. It's just what's happening.

Harvey: 33:29

Right, exactly. And that's when fake it 'til you make it works, if you have specific goals in mind of very specific behaviors, and I'm talking about getting into the minutiae of what it is that you want to change. That is when fake it till you make it works, psychologically speaking. It doesn't work when you start getting into some of these more intangible things. Like, something that they discovered, if you're trying to fake it 'til you make it - and this is something that we found in psychology - that, if you try to fake it 'til you make it in order to, in some way, prove your self-worth either to yourself or others, that actually has the opposite effect, in making you feel like you are less worthwhile. And I didn't - unfortunately, I didn't do enough reading to find a conclusive answer as far as why that happens. But if I had to guess, here's - here's kind of my armchair psychologist theory on this. Well, hypothesis, I should say. So, in terms of fake it 'til you make it, when it's something actionable, typically, you are going to see some level of success. Either you are going to be evaluated by others in a way that you prefer, or you're going to evaluate yourself in a way that you prefer. So, in your case, even - let's just say, hypothetically, you faked confidence, and it didn't get you anywhere. That might have been a bummer, but you might have looked at yourself and said, "Hey, I did that, though. Like, that was so much different from the way that I normally approach that. That's pretty awesome." That's still a reinforcer, and that is still associating those changes in behavior with something positive. That's harder to do with something like self-worth, if it's so intrinsically low, and there's - there - that one is such an abstract concept in particular, that it is really hard to find something actionable. I think you could, if you sat down long enough, but at the end of the day, that would kind of switch into a different goal.

Pen: 35:29

That's - you know, that actually makes a lot of sense. Because, like I said, one of the ways in which I've sort of done the fake it 'til you make it was, like, saying things like"I'm very funny," and then getting that positive feedback from people saying, "Yes, Pen, you are." And so, it was me making a statement that was more certain than I felt, but if I had made that statement and not gotten any feedback, it wouldn't have done anything, and probably would have made me feel worse and super self-conscious about it. But it was getting that positive feedback that let me solidify it in my mind.

Harvey: 36:00

Yeah. So really, with fake it 'til you make it, the more those positive reinforcers can come from the inside of you, the more of them that - that can come intrinsically, the better it's going to work.

Pen: 36:15

Uh-huh.

Harvey: 36:16

But yeah, you know, the thing is, if you're just trying to prove your worth to people, you know, if you're doing that in that really intangible way of just, like, trying to be more confident, or just be more worthwhile, you're not going to be seeing a lot of success because, you know, you're - you're working toward, like I said, I feel like a broken record, but something just so remarkably intangible.

Pen: 36:38

That makes - that makes a lot of sense.

Harvey: 36:41

Yeah, no, that - that surprised me, too. And that actually also explained for me, why fake it till you make it never worked. Because so much of my self-esteem issues, and so much of the things that I don't like about myself, are just so abstract. So it's just - it's just a different thing. And really, what trying to get a little better emotionally and trying to kind of change the way that I treat myself and change the way that I think about myself has come a lot more from just doing a lot of that intrinsic worth. And I mean, it is positive self-talk that I have to do. It's - it's - it's much more the cognitive-behavioral therapy side of things, of actively challenging my thoughts where I'm like, "I'm worthless," and then I have to sit down with myself and be like, "Okay, why? Why do you think you're worthless?" And then I inevitably never have an answer for it.

Pen: 37:36

Yeah, definitely.

Harvey: 37:37

So yeah, that's - that is the psychology of fake it'til you make it in a nutshell. We could go way more into depth, but we don't have that much time.

Pen: 37:46

That makes total sense. And also, for me, explains a lot of why it has worked for me. because it is a gamble to take, like, especially when it's something that you are actively doing, or, like, presenting to other people.

Harvey: 37:56

Right.

Pen: 37:57

Like, if I had said I'm funny, and no one had said anything, that would have been a gamble, it would have paid off badly.

Harvey: 38:01

Oh, very badly.

Pen: 38:02

But it was because I already knew that it was something that was going to pay off well, because people said it anyway. And also, because I know- I knew y'all's vibes. But I have always been someone, - all of my therapists I've always told me I'm very self aware.

Harvey: 38:16

Oh, me, too! It's the trauma.

Pen: 38:18

Yeah. It's - for me, it's also, like, the exact reason that communication studies, and especially, like, interpersonal communication and things, has appealed to me so much, is because it's all of these little tiny things that add up into a bigger picture. Like - like, knowing that in order to act more confident, I would have to do this list of things, over and over, until it just worked, and I was doing them automatically.

Harvey: 38:46

Right.

Pen: 38:47

That is the kind of person that I am, is someone who notices all of the little things that go into something. It's how I think, it's how my thinking has worked for a very, very long time. And I think that's why the fake it 'til you make it has worked for me is, you know, the idea of "I'm going to act more confident," is an abstract goal. But I also know what that means.

Harvey: 39:07

Right.

Pen: 39:08

And so, I've had all these little things where it's like, yeah, I'm going to do this, this, and this in order to act more confident.

Harvey: 39:14

Yeah. And that's the thing, it's about creating an operational definition. And an operational definition being - kind of like proofs in geometry class, it's sort of like breaking down every little step.

Pen: 39:25

I was also - that was what I was best at geometry, was proofs.

Harvey: 39:29

Oh, me, too. I loved doing proofs, which meant that all of my classmates thought I was insane. Which, that's fair. I can't blame them.

Pen: 39:39

But yeah, that - that actually does - that fits super well with my understanding of both what fake it 'til you make it is, and also myself.

Harvey: 39:47

Yeah, absolutely.

Pen: 39:49

So basically, that means that we're right. [Laughter] Yeah, yeah, it's - huh! That's really neat.

Harvey: 39:58

Yeah, no, it was actually a really interesting rabbit hole for me to go down, too. And it was interesting, because some- some - some concepts that I learned back in, God, introductory psych, that I took when I was 18, became relevant again. Like, I haven't thought about the theories of emotion since I was in that intro class. And I was like, oh, shoot, I know what those are. Oh, course they - they're relevant here!

Pen: 40:26

I love that kind of stuff. Like, real basic theories, you go back to, and you're like, oh!

Harvey: 40:31

There is a reason you exist!

Pen: 40:33

Oh, there we go.

Harvey: 40:35

This is why this is relevant.

Pen: 40:38

So you did tell me this for a reason.

Harvey: 40:40

There is a reason. So, you know - and I think, part of why - and briefly I will say - part of why I think fake it 'til you make it doesn't work for me is because I am not - well, I was about to say I'm an - I'm not a very intrinsically motivated person, but that's actually not true at all. I'm a very intrinsically motivated person.

Pen: 41:01

I am actually, if you think about it, not a very intrinsically motivated person. I don't have enough dopamine, and what - epinephrine to be an intrinsically motivated person.

Harvey: 41:09

Norepinephrine, actually.

Pen: 41:10

Norepinephrine. Thank you.

Harvey: 41:11

Epinephrine is the technical name for adrenaline, actually.

Pen: 41:14

Oh, I have a lot of that.

Harvey: 41:16

You - yeah, too much, probably.

Pen: 41:17

Yeah.

Harvey: 41:18

And too much adrenaline is not good for anybody.

Pen: 41:21

No.

Harvey: 41:22

So actually, I think I'm going to scratch what I said, that the - the more you can intrinsically motivate, the better it will work. Because I think, at least anecdotally, it seems that the more that you thrive off of external motivation, actually...

Pen: 41:36

Yes.

Harvey: 41:37

...is going to make fake it till you make it work better. When you are - yeah, exactly, because you got the positive feedback. And that is so important to you.

Pen: 41:44

Yep.

Harvey: 41:44

For me, outside - outside appraisals of me, like, they do matter, but the way that I feel about myself is so much more salient.

Pen: 41:55

Oh. Yeah, that's - that's very different for me. Like, there are a lot of areas - and this is where I sometimes come into issues with my therapist - is, like, internally, I have a pretty good sense of myself. And you know, I had to work on liking myself, and work on loving myself, but I'm definitely at a point where I, you know, I like myself very much. And sometimes, I have some issues with that, but like, I'm all set on the internal things. Therefore, things like my social anxiety have nothing to do with me building self-confidence and everything to do with, like,"But I need to figure out how to not worry about what other people are perceiving." Right. What they're perceiving me as doesn't affect my self-confidence at all, and, like, my self-worth, but it absolutely impacts my ability to, like, interact and things, because then I'm overthinking it all the time, and et cetera, et cetera.

Harvey: 42:41

Which is exhausting.

Pen: 42:43

Yes, it is. I'm very tired.

Harvey: 42:46

So, should start wrapping up.

Pen: 42:48

Yep, yep, yep.

Harvey: 42:49

Pen.

Pen: 42:49

Yes, Harvey.

Harvey: 42:50

Do you have any closing thoughts about fake it 'til you make it, or anything we've discussed today?

Pen: 42:55

Uh, I appreciate you telling me all these facts about brains. It was very cool.

Harvey: 42:59

I'm very glad it was cool.

Pen: 43:00

And it was neat to understand this, this part of how I have done my own psychology stuff abit better. It was - it was cool. It was also nice to reflect on ways where I've succeeded, especially back when I was still doing pretty poorly.

Harvey: 43:14

Yeah.

Pen: 43:15

So that's nice. But one thing that I wanted to say, and here's - here's one that comes up for me, like, all the time, when I'm talking to people. I'm a very creative person, I would say.

Harvey: 43:24

Mm-hmm. Definitely.

Pen: 43:26

I have become a jack-of-all-trades kind of art person. I write, and I do visual art, and I do music, and it's cool. I like it.

Harvey: 43:32

I just do visual art, but I'm pretty good at it.

Pen: 43:34

I think you're great at it. I love your art.

Harvey: 43:36

Aw, shucks.

Pen: 43:37

You do a scribble, and I'm like, yeah!

Harvey & Pen: 43:39

Woo!

Pen: 43:41

Um, and sometimes, people will tell me, like, "Wow, I could never do that. Like, that's, - that's great." And especially when people say that about, like, my painting, they're like, "I could never do that," and I was like - and I'm always like, "I am 100% self taught. I sat down with some paint and was like, 'Hm, this is kind of cool. I guess I'll do it.' So if you think what I'm doing is cool, I want you to know, there is no barrier here. You can just do things." And that's, like, a very basic, I think, form of fake it 'til you make it. But it's one that is very important to me and comes up more frequently, is, like, you can't just decide to do things and decide to try things, and that's okay.

Harvey: 44:20

Yeah.

Pen: 44:21

You can just decide, like, you know what? I'm going to start doing this thing, and I'm going to do it, just because I want to, and it's for me. And that doesn't necessarily take away any of the nerves that you might have about trying this new thing, but giving yourself that permission, just in your brain, to do a thing just because you want to, and not because you have anything to prove about whether you're, like, creative enough, or smart enough, or good enough. Like, that kind of internal - like, okay, you've repeated enough times, and it becomes true. You can just do this because you want to. That can be really, really impactful, and is probably the aspect of fake it 'til you make it that I bring up with other people the most often

Harvey: 45:01

Yeah.

Pen: 45:02

Do you have any closing thought, Harv and a half?

Harvey: 45:05

Harv and three-quarters.

Pen: 45:06

Not two Harvs.

Harvey: 45:07

Aw!

Pen: 45:07

I only see one Harv - you keep - you say all every time, eventually, you're just gonna, like, mitosis split in front of me, I'm gonna be like, "Fine! Two Harvs!" [Laughter] "Okay!"

Harvey: 45:18

Harvey asexually reproduces ASMR.

Pen: 45:21

Roleplay.

Harvey: 45:22

Not clickbait.

Pen: 45:22

Not clickbait.

Harvey: 45:23

I'm gonna - I think I've brought this up in a previous episode, but I actually - I'm gonna echo something that a previous therapist I had told me that - you know, she wasn't great - but this is the one thing she said to me, that continues to stick with me. I forget exactly what the situation was, but she looked at me and she said, "You know, Harvey, there's not going to be a moment where you just feel ready. There's not going to be a moment where you just feel like all the stars have aligned, and you are ready to do this thing. You are scared, and you are going to keep being scared. So, at some point, you're going to have to decide that that risk is something you're willing to take."

Pen: 46:00

Yeah.

Harvey: 46:00

And maybe - maybe, for the way that my brain works, maybe a little bit harsh for what I tend to respond to, but, you know, maybe to rephrase that in a way that's a little bit

gentler: 46:10

It's okay to be afraid of things, and you don't have to wait until you're not afraid to do them. And what I found is that waiting for that perfect moment where I just felt ready paralyzed me.

Pen: 46:25

Yeah.

Harvey: 46:26

Because every time I hit the metric that I set for myself previously, I would set a new one. So yeah, very much want to echo what Pen says. Just do stuff. I know that that is - again, as someone with anxiety, I know that that is so much easier said than done. But the first time you push yourself, the first time you realize that you can do it.

Pen: 46:47

Absolutely. Like, it is - on the one hand, definitely I understand anxiety a lot, and just deciding to do something is something that my brain is literally incapable of doing in a lot of scenarios. On the other hand, just deciding to do something is one of the best things that you can do for your mental health sometimes.

Harvey: 47:03

It's extremely liberating.

Pen: 47:05

And once you repeat that action enough, you can give yourself permission to do all kinds of improvements for your life. And, sometimes, just to like yourself.

Harvey: 47:16

Uh-huh. So, stick around for just a few more moments. We'll tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is run, and our new Patreon. Also, love yourself!

Pen: 47:26

Yeah, love yourself!

Harvey & Pen: 47:27

Respect yourself! Love yourself! Respect yourself!

Pen: 47:34

Oh, Harvey.

Harvey: 47:37

Beyond Introspection is an independently-run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at ByndPodcast or you can email us at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com. That's beyond d-o-t podcast, no spaces. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description.

Pen: 48:02

We also have a Patreon. You can find us at patreon.com/beyondintrospection. That's all one word. We also have links to it on our site and on our social media. Our podcast is entirely independent, so we pay for hosting fees and transcript service subscriptions out of pocket. This is a passion project that we're really happy to do, and any support you're able to give us would really make a difference. On our Patreon, there are four tiers: $2, which gives you access to test audio and other bloopers; $5 which will give you access to bonus episodes that will make in the future, on topics like how angry we are at Freud, our frustrations with our respective fields of studies and even guest episodes; $10 will get you a direct line and priority access to request episode topics and new bonus content; and $15, which will give you access to monthly AMAs--that's ask me anything for those who don't know--where we can answer questions ranging from the podcast process and we figure out what to record, more in depth questions about our neurodivergences, and more. All of those tiers will include benefits from lower tiers of course. Got feedback for us? Want to request an episode topic? Just feel like saying hello? Feel free to reach out on social media, or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.