In this episode, Pen and Harvey talk about their respective anxiety disorders and how they (unsurprisingly) impact literally every aspect of their lives.
Featuring: Anxiety Refresher Course; Pen's good at public speaking, but can't talk about the weather; A diagnosis is not just one thing; Harvey's brain is Minecraft & Pen has some bug reports; Links between anxiety & trauma; Anxiety is a magnifying glass; Sure would be nice if evolution didn't make anxiety so overpowered.
Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
USA Suicide Prevention:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
International Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines
Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/
Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:
https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte
Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:
https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/
https://stopaapihate.org/
Resources for US Immigrants:
https://www.informedimmigrant.com/
Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:
In this episode, Pen and Harvey talk about their respective anxiety disorders and how they (unsurprisingly) impact literally every aspect of their lives.
Featuring: Anxiety Refresher Course; Pen's good at public speaking, but can't talk about the weather; A diagnosis is not just one thing; Harvey's brain is Minecraft & Pen has some bug reports; Links between anxiety & trauma; Anxiety is a magnifying glass; Sure would be nice if evolution didn't make anxiety so overpowered.
Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
USA Suicide Prevention:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
International Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines
Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/
Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:
https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte
Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:
https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/
https://stopaapihate.org/
Resources for US Immigrants:
https://www.informedimmigrant.com/
Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:
Hello, and welcome to Beyond Introspection: a podcast about mental health, neurodivergence, and how it impacts literally every aspect of our lives.
Harvey:All of them.
Pen:All of them. I'm Pen.
Harvey:And I'm Harvey.
Pen:And this week, we're going to talk about anxiety.
Harvey:Yep. We decided on this topic approximately three hours ago.
Pen:Yep. Yep, definitely. It's on the list, though. It is on the list.
Harvey:Oh, yes.
Pen:Now, it is--I did actually recently put it on the list, but it was still on there.
Harvey:That's what counts.
Pen:It does.
Harvey:Look, I don't have any concept of time and I know that you sure as heck don't either.
Pen:Oh, my God, no. Absolutely not.
Harvey:So, who--who give a--who give a heck? Rene Descartes.
Pen:I love that so much. Okay, let's--before we get into a little bit more of, like, refreshing people on what kind of anxiety we both am... is... are... Harvey pointed to me.
Harvey:Pen.
Pen:Pen. Oh, I mean, Harvey. That's my name. I mimic.
Harvey:Tell me...
Pen:Yes.
Harvey:...about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week.
Pen:Thank you, Harvey. My Wahoo! Moment--I'm going to say it is that I have made friends with my new roommate's dog and cat.
Harvey:Yeah!
Pen:The dog, Lady, she's a very good dog. She--she was kind of anxious around me at first, but we've become good friends. She's actually on the couch nearby as we're recording. She's usually quiet, but y'all might get some ambient dog sound, and if so, I'm very sorry, but there's, legit, not another great setup that we have.
Harvey:No, my apartment is also an option, but my cat is way louder.
Pen:Oh, God, yeah. And then the kitty cat Benji, she's---oh, Benji's so chill. Benji doesn't talk much. She spends most of her time either on top of a bookcase or just wherever, rolling around like, "Hey, have you considered petting me? If not, I will change your mind."
Harvey:And then I can pick her up and hold her like baby, and she's like, "Okay."
Pen:Yeah, she's absurdly chill. But it's been really nice to--like, I've discovered it's, um--it's actually part of the reason I've been thinking about my social anxiety. Because, you know, I like to not just be alone, because just being alone sometimes turns my brain into"No, no, bad, depression, no."
Harvey:Horrible, awful.
Pen:Awful, bad. But, you know, being around other people is--it drains my social energy because I'm an introvert, and also, I have anxiety. And just chilling with Lady has actually helped that a lot.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Which is--it doesn't surprise me much, because she's a good dog, and also happens to be--like, my roommate has that emotional support animal, like, letter for her. So you know, she's--she's good puppy for when you're like, [groan].
Harvey:Puppy.
Pen:What's--Harvey, what's your Wahoo! Moment of the Week?
Harvey:My Wahoo! Moment of the Week has to do with you, my friend.
Pen:Oh, my God, me?
Harvey:Yes! You!
Pen:Whoa.
Harvey:Whoa.
Pen:Whoa.
Harvey:So my birthday--as of recording this, my birthday is in two days. I'm going to be 21. So by the time--
Pen:Sounds fake, but okay.
Harvey:So by the time this is posted, I will be 21 but--
Pen:Y'all gotta stop aging.
Harvey:I'm sorry.
Pen:No, it's okay.
Harvey:But one of the birthday presents that I got, and I got this one early, Pen and some of our friends who live in the apartment, my roommate and Pen's roommate, all pitched in to buy me a cane. And something that I don't know if I've mentioned on this podcast is that I deal with chronic pain, especially in my back, and I have been using this cane--I've been wanting to walk with a cane for a while. I've been meaning to get one for myself, but...
Pen:Which is why it had to be an early birthday present, because I couldn't very well have you get your own.
Harvey:So, I've been wanting to walk with a cane just to help kind of support me, because it's hard to kind of keep my back straight. And well, now I have the cane, and it's been great to use. It's been nice to, like, get around and not be in, like, horrible pain when I'm done.
Pen:That does seem--that seems way preferable.
Harvey:Yeah, no. So I'm really grateful for that. Thank you again.
Pen:Yeah, I'm really glad it's been working out. It was well reviewed.
Harvey:Oh, yeah. And yeah, I would say that that is my Wahoo! Moment of the Week.
Pen:Oh, hooray!
Harvey:Woo-hoo!
Pen:Woo-hoo!
Harvey:Wow.
Pen:Wow. Jeez.
Harvey:That's been today's feedback loop.
Pen:It has. That's--well, that's every day's feedback loop when we hang out. One of us makes a sound and we're like,[babbling]
Harvey:Like, whoa. Wow.
Pen:We actually did that a lot when we took Lady on a little bit of a walk earlier.
Harvey:Oh, yeah.
Pen:And there were a couple people out. And you know what? You can--I think it will be nice for me to go on a walk with a dog, because I talk to myself anyway, and I'm going to talk to Lady, and people are probably gonna think it's less--like, I'll draw a little bit less attention. They'll be like, "Oh, they're just talking to the dog."
Harvey:Yeah. Which like, that makes sense.
Pen:Which, I mean, I was gonna talk anyway, but...
Harvey:But now you have a puppy to blame it on.
Pen:Puppy.
Harvey:Puppy.
Pen:But yeah, so we're gonna--thank you.
Harvey:Sorry!
Pen:That was the cane.
Harvey:That was--that was the cane hitting against our table. Anyway...
Pen:Let's do a quick refresher course on our anxiety.
Harvey:Yes.
Pen:For the listeners, not for us. We know.
Harvey:No, we--
Pen:Intimately.
Harvey:Oh, God. We know so, so, so, so well.
Pen:You want to go first? Or do you want me to?
Harvey:Uh, I can, yeah. So, my diagnoses have kind of floated around. And--and honestly, since the last time I talked about my anxiety, my diagnoses have updated, because I think the last time I talked about specific anxiety diagnoses was back in, God, I think our first episode.
Pen:That would be last August, then. Whoa.
Harvey:Horrible, horrible! Anyway...
Pen:Oh... I mean, cool, also...
Harvey:But also...
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:The passage of time, ugh. So, as far as what I am
diagnosed with:at this point, I am actually subthreshold for Generalized Anxiety Disorder, however, that comes and goes in waves. I would say, probably right now, I currently meet the criteria for it. But yeah, that one, my Generalized Anxiety is starting to subside.
Pen:Woo!
Harvey:Right?
Pen:That's great, bud!
Harvey:Yeah, definitely, I agree. But I'm also--on the flip side of that, I also do now have a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder.
Pen:Oh, no, bummer.
Harvey:Tentatively, it's--it's complex PTSD. But that isn't a real diagnosis in the--in the DSM.
Pen:That's because the DSM is...
Harvey:...stupid.
Pen:Yes.
Harvey:Bad.
Pen:Yeah. Um, I was going to go into a cuss, but... no. Anyway...
Harvey:We cannot cuss. Um, so, yeah, I do have a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder, tentatively, it is complex post-traumatic stress disorder. Which, C-PTSD is different from PTSD in that C-PTSD tends to refer to repeated trauma, and that can be either repeated, severe traumas, or it could be repeated, smaller traumas.
Pen:That seems like something that's a very relevant and important distinction.
Harvey:Yeah. And the thing about regular PTSD, so to speak, is that it results typically from, like, one excessively traumatic event.
Pen:This is making me think about things, but, well, I have therapy tomorrow, so you know what? That's fine. It's fine.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Anyway...
Harvey:Anyway. And I also have panic disorder.
Pen:Not swag, not epic.
Harvey:Not swag, or epic. So then, yeah, those are my diagnoses. Those are the things that I deal with. Panic disorder is different from Generalized Anxiety. Generalized Anxiety refers to kind of this free-floating anxiety, which can--which can sometimes look like--sort of like--like being anxious for no reason. Like, things can be going perfectly fine, and then suddenly, you just are anxious. But Generalized Anxiety also kind of creates, like, amplified anxiety.
Pen:Yes.
Harvey:Anxiety that would manifest for somebody without anxiety normally, you know, like, it's just amplified in folks with anxiety.
Pen:Yeah, like you're worried about a test, or public speaking, or whatever, and instead of like, the regular anxiety than anyone might be used to, is, like, ramped up to 10, instead of at, like, four.
Harvey:Right.
Pen:You know, depending on how bad it is, but [it] does absolutely make going through life harder.
Harvey:Little things can become legitimately crippling. Panic Disorder, on the other hand, refers to--well, it refers to a panic attack. And I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty of how a panic attack is defined. There is actually a definition of a panic attack in psychology, but I don't find it super helpful. But a panic attack, generally: the overwhelming sense of dread that something nondescript is going to happen to you. Like, something bad is going to happen to you. And it's typically associated with, um, some, like--some physiological responses. Typically, heavier breathing, increased heart rate, that sort of thing. Not explaining that to you, mostly to the--
Pen:No, yeah, totally, like, the trembling.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Sweating.
Harvey:Sometimes nausea in some folks. So panic disorder, then, is refers to panic attacks that are brought on by essentially nothing. And the other hallmark of panic disorder is that it's--it's a vicious cycle, because, in panic disorder, folks who are affected are afraid of having another panic attack.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:Which can create more panic attacks, which is one of the issues that I struggle with. So, in terms of treatment, I've been in and out of CBT--cognitive behavioral therapy--since I was 11. And I'm currently on, like, 200 milligrams of sertraline, or Zoloft, which works both as an antidepressant and an antianxiety.
Pen:Gotta love that love that about SSRIs where it's like, do you have depression and anxiety? The answer is probably yes. If you have one diagnosis, you--the odds that you have both is just very high. Like, what if you... it becomes ... serotonin.
Harvey:Serotonin and norepinephrine.
Pen:Nor... [stuttering]
Harvey:Norepinephrine is probably more implicated in anxiety than serotonin, but that's just my psych nerd brain.
Pen:Harvey brain be like, "I know psychology facts." Pen brain be like, "Yay!"
Harvey:Pen.
Pen:Yes.
Harvey:Tell me about your anxiety.
Pen:Okay. Currently, I don't think I'm, like, technically diagnosed with generalized anxiety, or if I am, I don't think it's accurate. It used to be. When I was 10, I had severe generalized anxiety. I felt nauseous constantly, because, like, I felt guilty conscious--uh, constantly. And so then I felt nauseous because, you know, when you're guilty, you feel, like, sick to your stomach sometimes.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:To the point where my mom was actually concerned I had an ulcer.
Harvey:Oh, wow.
Pen:At 10. So...
Harvey:That's very young.
Pen:Yeah, it's, uh--it was really, really bad. It was really intense generalized anxiety. I've also had social anxiety for, legitimately, as long as I can remember, which sucks. The generalized anxiety and the depression that I dealt with, I would say, are linked more to my ADHD. And then, you know, generalized anxiety and social anxiety can feed into each other a bit, especially because socializing is a completely unavoidable part of existing, especially when you're a kid going to school.
Harvey:Mm-hmm.
Pen:So social anxiety is pretty much exactly what it says on the tin.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:You are very anxious in social situations.
Harvey:And it typically--it stems from a--from a fear of being judged, right? Generally?
Pen:Um, yeah, in some ways. In some--kind of, yeah. Like, worry that--and you know, I'm working on my own sort of experiences, rather than a technical definition, because I didn't look one up. It stems, kind of, from being concerned--oh, uh, people say like, "Ah, yeah, don't worry about what other people are thinking about you, because everyone's probably just thinking about themselves instead of paying attention to you." And that, you know, is the case or whatever, but being hyper aware of yourself and others. And when I say hyper aware, I mean, oh, hyper aware. And, like, freezing up, like, not knowing what to say or do, either from fear of judgment, or legitimately just like, you're so anxious that you don't--like, all of the thoughts that you would normally have are just kind of gone.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Which makes it pretty impossible to carry on a conversation.
Harvey:That sounds inconvenient.
Pen:It is. So that's my--that's my anxiety is way primarily social, and then sometimes, you know, I have anxiety responses and things from my ADHD and such. I have, a couple of times, had--I mean, I've had panic attacks before. There was a joke that I unintentionally made last night: crying speedrun. I used to do that. Or I would legitimately have, like, got a panic attack sort of meltdown things within the course of, like, five to 10 minutes, start to finish, little thing.
Harvey:And I will say, it's actually not unusual for panic attacks to resolve that quickly.
Pen:Yeah, it was.. it was, uh... anyway, my teenage years were bad.
Harvey:Not--not to say that it wasn't, like, unusual for you. Everyone has a different baseline.
Pen:Yeah, it was mostly that I could, like, half control it.
Harvey:Yeah. And that's--and that's the really curious thing.
Pen:Yeah, it was because I was suppressing all of my emotions until I could go away to someone--somewhere quiet and alone. Anyway, that's not what we're here to talk about right now. That's for tomorrow in therapy, probably.
Harvey:Therapy is good.
Pen:Therapy is good. But yes, so, yeah, I've had panic attacks before, and a couple of times I've had them where it didn't seem to be brought on by anything. And I remember reaching out to you both times, like, "Hey, this is just what it's like? This is just what it's like for you sometimes? This sucks! Oh, my God!"
Harvey:Yeah, I think when I told Penn for the first time that I received a diagnosis of panic disorder, they were really--I was surprised and they were surprised when I mentioned"Oh, yeah, I probably have, like, at least one or two panic attacks a month." And Pen was like, "That's so many, Harvey."
Pen:Yeah, I was like... what?
Harvey:Like, what are you--that's--that's like good for me. Like, because when I wa younger, I was getting panic attacks, like, every wee
Pen:Yeah, that's actually a big... yeah.
Harvey:Sometimes several times a week.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:But yeah--
Pen:Just, like, as a general basis, no. That's not how often panic attacks happen when your brain doesn't hate you.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Uh-oh.
Harvey:Uh-oh. But you were--you were saying that you...
Pen:Yeah, yeah we're--the first one was when I--or, that I remember, I guess, in recent times--was when I started taking Lexapro, and I restarted my Adderall at the same time, and I thought that it was serotonin syndrome.
Harvey:Right. I recall that.
Pen:Realized, like, oh, no, I think this is--I think this is
Harvey:Oh, yeah. Like, it doesn't feel as scary for me"just" a panic attack that was not brought on by anything. Because, legitimately, just the physical symptoms of a panic attack, and then the feeling of, you know, panic, can be really, really scary when it doesn't have a clearly defined source. Like, it sucks when it does hav a clearly defined source, bu then, at least, you know what it is, if it comes from nowhere at all, that's--that can be completely terrifying. anymore, because frankly, I am used to having panic attacks. I mean, I have panic disorder. But, I--the first time you have a panic attack, especially when it's not brought on by anything, like, you think you're dying.
Pen:Yeah. Oh, yeah, I was legitimately like, "Hey, maybe this is hospital time," and unfortunately, was also COVID time, so there was a lot of, like, decisions to be made in when or, like, whether to go to the hospital, because it was last May. So you know, hardcore COVID times.
Harvey:Early start of the pandemic, the--the US had no idea what they were doing, and frankly, still has no idea what they're doing.
Pen:No. But, like, hospitals were overcrowded, and there was also, like, "Hey, is this a risk that we can reasonably expose ourselves to?" And I'm sitting over here like, this--I feel so bad. But "good" news, it was a panic attack.
Harvey:Yeah, I actually also--the--one of the first times I had a panic attack, probably when I was 17, I did go to the hospital because I thought I was having a heart attack. It was a combination of a panic attack and also GERD. GERD--
Pen:Such a bad...
Harvey:GERD essentially being chronic heartburn. Stomach acid doesn't like to stay in my stomach, um, which is...
Pen:No, but that's where it's supposed to live, though!
Harvey:Yeah, but it--and then that gets exacerbated by anxiety, but...
Pen:Mm-hmm. But yeah, yeah. So now, I'm going to, like, go a little bit more into, I guess, kind of why I wanted to--like, how I've been thinking about my social anxiety more. Amd like, because this is--again, this is something that I've been dealing with for, really, as long as I can remember, which is very annoying when I think about it, because I think, by all rights, I should be a very charismatic person.
Harvey:And I mean, you are.
Pen:Well, thank you. I think I should be good at talking to people, because--and this is the--this is the weirdest, I think, contradiction in terms of my anxiety: I am not afraid of public speaking, like, at all. It is not--I'm not--it doesn't make me terribly nervous. Like, kinda nervous, yeah, sure, but I go up, and, like, my voice doesn't shake. I remember I was in, like, oh, gosh, was it in, like, fourth or fifth grade or something? I was fairly young. And I won some essay contest or whatever for, like, Veterans Day. And so I went--had to go in front of the gymnasium and, like, say my essay, and I remember nothing about it, really, except my mom telling me--this was the first time I had, like, spoken in front of a large group of people--that she was really impressed. Like,"Wow, your voice didn't shake at all. You sounded super confident." And I was like, I mean, my hands were kind of shaking when I was up there, but that's cool, I guess.
Harvey:And I'll tell you what, that's actually not super unusual. Public speaking--well, can, and sometimes does fall within--within social anxiety. Fear of public speaking is typically categorized as--as a phobia.
Pen:Oh, no, that's what I mean is, like...
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Fear of public speaking is super, super common.
Harvey:Oh--
Pen:That's what I mean. Like, it is so common, just in general. It's up there at, like, top three most common fears for people is public speaking. And me, debilitating social anxiety for my whole life, not that scared of public speaking.
Harvey:Well, yeah. And that was my point, that it's not super unusual for folks with social anxiety to not necessarily be afraid of public speaking.
Pen:Well, I guess we have that brain cell, so. I imagine it is kind of related. And certainly, I think part of it is for me, like, this is a very controlled situation. I know what I'm supposed to be doing.
Harvey:There are rules to public speaking.
Pen:It's so nice when I know the rules. And, like...
Harvey:That was your whole major.
Pen:Yeah, like, that's, you know, why--part of--a big part of our like, communication studies so much, is it's learning the rules, and the problem with social situations is there's some of them where rules work, and there's some of them where they don't, and you can't have it as concrete, and that causes me no end of trouble. The thing that really, really got me was, the other day--I work at a library. So you know, patrons come in, and you say hi and whatnot. Usually, I don't manage anything other than the "Hi," but the other day, there was, like, a brief--we did a brief conversation about the weather, which is the most generic thing you can talk about.
Harvey:Oh, yeah.
Pen:Though, in the Midwest, it is, like, legitimately a conversation.
Harvey:I was going to say, in the Midwest, we really do talk about the weather.
Pen:Yeah, like legit, because it's absurd. But, yeah. And it was, like, you know, more than just a few sentences. And that was, like, a celebration for me. I was like, whoa! That was really good for me! And then I realized that having a few--like, two minutes of a conversation about the weather was really significant for me because of my social anxiety. And that kind of put it in perspective for me, like, ohh, this is bad. Like, I've had a few--I've had a few moments--like, where I've been, like, oh, no, this is--oh, this is very bad anxiety. Oh, no. I am so tongue tied. I just cannot figure out what to say or how to say it. And I'm less hyper aware of things than I used to be, which is why, for me, like, I think my social anxiety is doing so much better.
Harvey:And relatively, it probably is.
Pen:Relatively, it really is. I am still at the point where I can't talk about the weather most times, because it just--some of it is that it doesn't really occur to me, and this is where my ADHD kind of comes in, too, because when you're neurodivergent, and you just don't pick up on social cues, where they don't make as much sense to you. Oh, no.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Yeah, it is--it's bad, Harv. My--my social anxiety is, legit, debilitating.
Harvey:Yeah, and I have gotten that sense from you.
Pen:Yeah, it's--oh, God. And it's very--you know, it's frustrating. Like I said, I don't--I pride myself on being good with words. I think I am good with words.
Harvey:I would agree.
Pen:And I know I'm a good public speaker. And so it's kind of infuriating in some ways, like, come on! Come--
Harvey:Like, I can't just have a conversation?
Pen:Are you serious right now? Like, I'm good at reading situations, I'm good at figuring other people out, I'm a good speaker, just in general, I'm fairly decent with words. And I can't just speak to people. I cannot just talk to someone, even very casually. And it's like, really?
Harvey:And that is--that is the irony of fear of public speaking not always being linked to social anxiety.
Pen:It's really...
Harvey:Like, that does just seem like a massive contradiction.
Pen:But it's, you know, it's because like, in a public speaking scenario, I know what the expectations are. If someone just wants me to talk, that's great. It's figuring out the cues of it. It's figuring out whether or not I should talk, what would make people uncomfortable, especially because I--and this is something we've talked about before--like, things that I think are perfectly reasonable to say so often, in my life, have gotten, like, that expression from people where they're like,"What? Why would you say that?" And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I thought it was an answer to your question.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Yeah, it's--as my generalized anxiety has gotten way better over the years, and my social anxiety is legit better, it's still just debilitating.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Completely. So, do you want to talk about your anxiety, Harvey?
Harvey:Oh, I wasn't sure if you had more thoughts.
Pen:I don't... I mean, I think about social anxiety a lot, but I don't really have--I wish it wasn't like this, and I don't exactly know how to make it better. And I--gosh, there are so many things I would like to do, you know? Just be social.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Make friends. More of them. I'm perfectly happy with the friends I have, but freezing up every time, and never knowing what to say, oh, oh...
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Oh...
Harvey:Yeah, that's--that's always rough.
Pen:I should be... [stammering] I have all the building blocks to be a really, like, friendly, charismatic person, who makes friends easily, except for the huge, glaring, just plastered everywhere, intense social anxiety.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Come on. It's just one thing.
Harvey:I mean, it's, I mean, though it's a lot of things when you think about it, isn't it?
Pen:It is, it really is.
Harvey:That's the thing about mental illness and neurodivergence, you slap, like, I am not against labeling at all. I think labels and language are really, really useful. So don't get me wrong. There is something inherently reductive about putting one word to describe an entire set of symptomology, especially in the case of mental health, when there really isn't a consistent way that things manifest.
Pen:That is true.
Harvey:Anxiety can look so many different ways, depression can look so many different ways. Depression can be sadness, and sluggishness, it can also be irritability.
Pen:Yeah. And that is, that is a very important thing to know.
Harvey:Yeah, that it's not just, oh, well, it's just my depression, I can't work past it. It's like, your depression is a lot of things. Your depression is affecting various facets of your life. And the same goes for you, your social anxiety is a lot of things.
Pen:It is. I think that's part of it, is there certain parts of it that I am getting a lot better at dealing with, and that were reduced significantly, like even really early on with the Lexapro. But there are other parts that are much harder to deal with. And those are especially like, it's getting easier for me to not worry as much about my behaviors. Like I don't worry as much about, like, not being where other people are, or is it wrong for me to like, walk into this place and move this thing or something like that, like, that's gotten a lot better. But it's still, like, the talking is really difficult. So from the outside, it probably doesn't look that much different. But part of that is because I didn't let people see so much of just - literally just me moving around and doing things.
Harvey:Right.
Pen:And that, my friend, does also come from trauma, which -
Harvey:Yeah...
Pen:- we don't love.
Harvey:The common thread through this entire podcast is that, all this stuff is like linked?
Pen:Yeah!
Harvey:Really, none of it is, is...can be separated.
Pen:The brain's got all those squigglies like right next to each other. How are you supposed to bring them out? This is spaghetti noodles.
Harvey:That's a very funny way to refer to neurotransmitters. I think it would be hilarious if instead of just like very tiny cells and electrical impulses, they were just spaghetti. Just spaghetti floating around in your brain.
Pen:Throw some spaghetti at the inside of your skull and see what sticks.
Harvey:The answer is probably too much. Although, hm, I think the inside of your skull is wet. So maybe it wouldn't. It probably wouldn't stick.
Pen:Huh?
Harvey:Cerebral spinal fluid.
Pen:Yeah...
Harvey:It cushions your brain.
Pen:That's good. I think my brain should have a cushion.
Harvey:Yeah, your brain should have a cushion. Because if it didn't, you'd be dead.
Pen:Very glad my brain has a cushion!
Harvey:But yeah, I can, I can also talk about my anxiety because the um - the thing about- kind of mental illness being deceptively multifaceted, is - is relevant for me too. Generalized anxiety, I think has been the...has been kind of the forefront of both my treatment for my mental health, and also just kind of the most difficult thing to deal with in my life, you know, for as long as I can remember. Which honestly, isn't that far back, I have concrete memories, maybe between like eight and then years, something like that.
Pen:Sorry, I think that's a little bit of a funny thing. Like when I say about as long as I can remember, I mean, about like age six. And when you say as long as I can remember you mean like -
Harvey:Closer to 10.
Pen:Which is not funny-haha, but a little bit like -
Harvey:It's a little...yeah, it's, I mean, it is a little bit funny-haha.
Pen:But and as we spoken about before, you did sure have Generalized Anxiety younger than 10.
Harvey:Yeah, I mean, I know I was in therapy. And like, I have sporadic memories here and there. But I know that I have fewer memories of my childhood than is standard. Anyway, that's not necessarily what I'm talking about. I've been struggling with generalized anxiety for pretty much my entire conscious life. And it's changed the way that - it's never really gone away. Like yeah, my symptoms are sub-threshold, but that's not always true. And just because I'm sub-threshold doesn't mean that I don't struggle.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:You know, a lot of my life, I would just get anxious about everything. My base -
Pen:Yes.
Harvey:My base level was anxious.
Pen:Can confirm.
Harvey:And it isn't - it isn't so much anymore.
Pen:Can confirm that too.
Harvey:Now that I'm on meds. But my base state probably from the time I was 13, to the time I was about 20 was just anxiety. I always anxious, always afraid of something. Everything would get massive in my head, I would just make these things absolutely gigantic. And some of the things that have gotten easier to deal with. I'm better at taking criticism than I used to be. I- a lot of my anxieties to revolve around people disliking me and not wanting to be around me anymore. And that's still there, but it's a lot less. I honestly say - I would honestly say if I had to think about it, that would be the one thing that improved the most.
Pen:Well, that's wonderful. I know it's really hard, especially because you're an artist and - legit, like legit. It's really, really hard for artists in particular, to overcome fear of criticism.
Harvey:Yeah. And honestly, that's part of why I didn't end up studying art in college. Because I was like, Oh, God, I don't know if I can make a career out of this. So now it's just a hobby, and I post my silly little drawings on Instagram sometimes.
Pen:Whoo!
Harvey:Whoo. And my base state is less anxious. However, I think I am pretty much always anxious, at least a little bit. It is not hard to set me off. What is true is that I still make things massive in my head. And anytime something happens, and I just have time to like, let it fester and just let it brew...I fall apart. This happened last night. And it's, that's the really debilitating part of it for me. The fact that I can't just take things in stride like I would like to. The fact that something bad happens and it just explodes in my head. Like it is - it gets bad it gets so so so bad.
Pen:Catastrophizing, right, that's what it's called?
Harvey:Catastrophizing, yeah. Catastrophizing meaning, assuming the worst case scenario and imagining the worst case scenario. Sometimes in catastrophizing, that worst case scenario goes beyond what's possible. Or even like, or it's likely, sometimes impossible.
Pen:You clip through the wall and go straight into the lava.
Harvey:[laughs] My anxiety is Minecraft.
Pen:Yeah. Your anxiety is -
Harvey:Alternatively a Bethesda game.
Pen:Your anxiety turns your brain into Skyrim, and you just die. In the game, but not in real life.
Harvey:I...Harvey - Harvey LaFord found dead in Miami.
Pen:Are they okay?
Harvey:Yeah, but they died.
Pen:Oh, shoot that actually...the glitching up a mountain thing in Skyrim. And the like, turning, making a mountain out of a molehill?
Harvey:Oh, yeah and my - my Zoloft helps me scale that mountain in a way that I absolutely should not be able to.
Pen:That's the Skyrim glitch.
Harvey:The physics are so broken.
Pen:[laughing] A neurodivergent brain is such a broken physics engine.
Harvey:Someone needs to do something like make a change log like, I don't know, man.
Pen:God, I have bug reports!
Harvey:Todd Howard, please,
Pen:Todd.
Harvey:Todd. So then other parts of my anxiety. Post traumatic stress disorder, I think as it stands is probably the number one thing affecting my life right now. So I'm going to - I'm going to throw up a brief trigger warning here for sexual assault, because that is part of my trauma. So when I was 18 years old, I was sexually assaulted by my boyfriend at the time. And I don't know what it was. But there was something about that event that triggered this, like, flood of every trauma I had ever experienced. Like I had had, you know, I had been dealing with the effects of trauma kind of unconsciously, but it was after developing PTSD from being assaulted. You know, that was the thing for a while. And actually, I don't have too many trauma responses to that one anymore, because I actually got therapy like right away.
Pen:Yeah, I remember that.
Harvey:My RA made me - not made me, I asked my RA for help in getting into therapy. And he was like, yeah, because he was a good dude.
Pen:Very good dude.
Harvey:Gabe, you're - you're a king, love you.
Pen:Swag. Swag man.
Harvey:Very swag man. But - so I'm actually not too affected by my assault anymore.
Pen:Swaggy!
Harvey:But what - what did happen after my assault was that I started having flashbacks and trauma responses to other things that have happened in my past.
Pen:Not swaggy.
Harvey:Not swaggy. And I'm intentionally being vague about the kind of trauma I'm talking about. Mostly because I don't know who's going to listen to this.
Pen:Yeah, that's a big mood.
Harvey:And I just kind of like, I don't want to stir the pot. But there were some things that happened while I was growing up that resulted in, like, some pretty long term self esteem issues. And some very deep, deep fears, particularly about being yelled at. And, and other things along those lines. We are shaking hands.
Pen:We're shaking hands.
Harvey:So it has become increasingly clear to me over the past several months, that my trauma and my PTSD has been really influencing the way that I just function. I'm starting to just become much more in tune with, with where my responses to things come from, where my anxieties come from, why I think about the world the way that I do. And I'm realizing that most of that is tied to trauma that I haven't really worked through. I kind of tried to but the counselor I was trying to work through this stuff with really was not helpful with that.
Pen:Oh, I remember her.
Harvey:A lot of it kind of got put on me. I don't think she meant to. But yeah, she tried her best, but...her best wasn't that good. And...I was gonna say something. So yeah, the big thing I'm recognizing right now about my anxiety is just realizing how PTSD is creeping into every element of my life, which actually does exacerbate my generalized anxiety, and does exacerbate my panic. Because I'm so scared of everything all the time.
Pen:You know, I've never really thought of PTSD being categorized alongside anxiety, though, like -
Harvey:It sort of is.
Pen:Like it makes a lot of sense. It's just not something I'd considered, which kind of realigns my own internal...[coughs]
Harvey:Based on, you know, I actually don't remember totally clearly whether PTSD is considered an anxiety disorder in the DSM, but they are considered linked.
Pen:That makes sense.
Harvey:They're sort of considered in the same family[Pen laughs] of problems that you can have.
Beyond Podcast:[In unison, laughing] Anyway, anyway -
Harvey:Anyway, and sort of this, this most recent round of trauma, and processing has came up because I came out to a family member, as nonbinary.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:And it went horribly. And things are fine now, really, for the most part, but in the moment, it hurt so much, and it brought up so much for me. So definitely, like I think, I think when I think about my anxiety and my experiences with it...you know, I say that generalized anxiety was was the most salient and - and in some, in some ways, I think that's true. I think the thing about my anxiety, particularly my PTSD, but my anxiety more broadly, why it has affected my life so much is because it permeates into everything.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:Depression affects me in very particular ways. It means that I have limited energy, and it means that I just often feel very down. But it doesn't seep into my life the same way that anxiety does.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:Anxiety impacts my ability to function on a day to day basis - as does depression, but anxiety just makes it so much harder.
Pen:I think it's less...like depression causes that fog, y'know? Depression kind of has that effect of sort of dampening everything. Whereas anxiety can just be interlaced, interwoven into you, regardless.
Harvey:Yeah. Um, an, you know, the - I mentioned this briefly in a past episode, but the thing about anxiety disorders, and also trauma responses, is that the - the more that your brain has that constant just pumping of cortisol, which is a stress hormone, going through your body and your brain, your brain's ability to bring you down from that anxious state - the parasympathetic nervous system is - is responsible for that - your ability - your brain's ability to bring you down from that erodes.
Pen:Yep.
Harvey:Because cortisoldamages the brain. Like, that's just straight up what it is.
Pen:Is that why deep breathing doesn't do it?
Harvey:It - that some of why it doesn't - it doesn't work for everybody. If you - if you've had intense and repeated anxiety for years, and years, and years, strategies - strategies that typically bring people down from panic don't work because your parasympathetic nervous system is damaged in certain ways.
Pen:Add that to the list of parts of my brain that don't work.
Harvey:Yuh. Um, I think this - this segues pretty well into some closing thoughts into - like, I don't know if you want to share any thoughts. Like, I know, sort of, where this sums
up for me is:my anxiety is so debilitating because it just permeates and it makes - it's like a magnifying glass. Anxiety magnifies the problems that I already have that exist, just makes them worse. Makes them so much harder to deal with because that, again, with the stress response, you know, you have fight, flight, freeze, fawn. I get frozen. I don't know how to work past it a lot of the time.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:So I don't know if you have any closing thoughts related to that or unrelated to that.
Pen:Yeah, yeah. So, I spent most of - most of mine talking about my social anxiety, which again, is, like, it is debilitating. It has been debilitating. It is crushing and frustrating.
Harvey:Should be noted, I actually don't struggle with social anxiety, which is a - which is a marked difference between me and Pen. Continue.
Pen:Yes. It is - it is an interesting one, I think. And honestly, I'm so happy for you that you don't, because it sucks.
Harvey:And I'm happy that you don't struggle with the kind of anxiety I do, because this sucks.
Pen:Yeah. This is - it is positivity we found there, at least. Some ways. But yeah, it's- it is frustrating, and it's also painful in a very, like, conscious way. Like, I am so aware of what it could be like, maybe, of - of what I could be, and how that isn't entirely under my control, and that sucks.
Harvey:Well, and some of why I think it's so cognitive is because anxiety is - is something that is so abstract.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:Depression isn't as much.
Pen:Yeah, it's - and you're right, that like, anxiety - like, everything it is, it is a collection of different things. It's not just one big thing.
Harvey:Right.
Pen:And there are so many things that I think I am pretty good at dealing with more directly, and I'm very proud of that. That's something I've been able to do in dealing with my mental illness, my neurodivergence, is, like, facing some of these things head-on. And my social anxiety in particular, there are so many aspects of that, that I just - I can't.
Harvey:It's just hitting a wall.
Pen:It is. There's - I cannot control all of that. I can work on it, and I can make some things better, and meds can help make some of it easier, but there are parts of my social anxiety that I can do nothing about on my own, and that is, eternally, an incredibly painful thing to know.
Harvey:Yeah. The - the body's stress response is evolutionarily - like, this - evolutionarily, this makes sense. Your body's stress response is so overpowering, because, you know, when we were still, like, really fending for ourselves, as humans, we needed that to stay alive. And now that survive - just pure survival is not as much of a concern, that can create more problems than it solves. So - I think - I think from a brain chemistry perspective, that's - that's some of why anxiety is so particularly difficult to deal with.
Pen:Yeah. It's - it's sucks.
Harvey:It's sucks.
Pen:Sometime we're gonna have to do an episode specifically on trauma, and...
Harvey:Oh, boy.
Pen:...still be vague in a lot of it, TBH.
Harvey:And probably at least one of us is going to cry.
Pen:Oh, probably.
Harvey:Maybe both of us.
Pen:Maybe both. But it is something that, like, I deal with as well. And, you know, a few times when you were talking, I made some - some sounds, because, you know, relating, and it's very, very difficult to deal with. But, yeah, like, repeated trauma over the course of your lifetime, permeates every aspect of your life.
Harvey:It rewires your brain. It really does.
Pen:It's - and that's - I thought about it when you were talking, what a common thing it is. Two things: one of them is, I have noticed - I've seen, like, both of us getting better over the course of, like, knowing each other from our beginning to now. And I think part of that - I know for me, and I imagine for you as well, is the support network that we've been able to build. Like, I know me being able to rely on you now, like, it is a world of difference from before, and things like that. So...
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:...just having that, like, understanding in all of it.
Harvey:And some of my healing has come from moving away from my source of trauma.
Pen:Yeah, same, same, same, same.
Harvey:Yeah. And also, finally learning to prioritize myself and making decisions that are better for me.
Pen:Yeah. And then, that it is- it is a thing that, like, some of the other people we know might say, or that we say to that, but I realized when you were talking, what a common thing it is for you and me in particular, to say, like, "Oh, yeah, that's, like, a trauma thing." It's like, oh, well, you know, that's - that's just trauma, in just, like....
Harvey:A very casual way.
Pen:Just everyday conversations. It's like, oh, yeah, no, sorry, I can't do this one thing, or I'm going to need to change this. Like, can't watch this show or sorry, I need you to talk slightly differently, or quieter, or something. And it's like, oh, that's just trauma, don't worry. Like...
Harvey:And it's very palpable when - when you realize that there are situations where you can't say that.
Pen:Yeah, that's the thing that really...
Harvey:That's when it hits you, where it's like, oh, oh, Lord.
Pen:Mm-hmm. On the one hand, glad that we have these situations in which we can just say, "Ope, trauma."
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:On the other hand, oh, no!
Harvey:Uh-oh!
Pen:Oh, no!
Harvey:Put this brain back in the oven, it needs time to cook.
Pen:Spaghetti needs to cook.
Harvey:Spaghetti needs to be better at being spaghetti.
Pen:The! Spaghetti!
Harvey:In your brain!
Pen:Woo!
Harvey:Woo! Okay. Any, like, very last closing thoughts?
Pen:No, I think that's - hey, anxiety sucks.
Harvey:Yeah, anxiety sucks. If you find - I will say, if you find, based on my relatively amateur understanding of psychology, if you find that your anxiety is harder to deal with than some of your other issues, at least, as far as I understand brain chemistry, that makes a lot of sense. Also, me, too.
Pen:Yeah, yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Yep. And if you related to any of this, once again, as always, we absolutely encourage you to - like if research helps, if looking into therapy and things help, there is absolutely no shame in that. Dealing with this is really, really hard. Everyone who is doing their best to deal with it, that's great. And, like, that counts. That's great. And if you are one of the many people out there who's like, oh, well, everyone has some anxiety, it's different. It's fundamentally different. I can't talk about the weather.
Harvey:Yes. Everyone experiences anxiety, but the kind of debilitating it becomes when you have an anxiety disorder is not even comparable.
Pen:It is not. If you do not understand that because you don't experience it...
Harvey:That's fair.
Pen:Happy for you! That's great.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Do not minimize other people's experiences.
Harvey:Yup. And I think that's a good thing to leave off on. So, stick around for just a few more moments, we'll tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is run, and our very cool and epic Patreon.
Pen:Woo!
Harvey:Oh, woo! Beyond Introspection is an independently-run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at ByndPodcast or you can email us at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com. That's beyond d-o-t podcast, no spaces. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description.
Pen:We also have a Patreon. You can find us at patreon.com/beyondintrospection. That's all one word. We also have links to it on our site and on our social media. Our podcast is entirely independent, so we pay for hosting fees and transcript service subscriptions out of pocket. This is a passion project that we're really happy to do, and any support you're able to give us would really make a difference. On our Patreon, there are four tiers: $2, which gives you access to test audio and other bloopers; $5 which will give you access to bonus episodes that will make in the future, on topics like how angry we are at Freud, our frustrations with our respective fields of studies and even guest episodes; $10 will get you a direct line and priority access to request episode topics and new bonus content; and $15, which will give you access to monthly AMAs--that's ask me anything for those who don't know--where we can answer questions ranging from the podcast process and we figure out what to record, more in depth questions about our neurodivergences, and more. All of those tiers will include benefits from lower tiers of course.
Harvey:Got feedback for us? Want to request an episode topic? Just feel like saying hello? Feel free to reach out on social media, or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.