INTROSPECTION: Communication Theory

In this episode, Pen talks about communication theory and how it can explain common miscommunications between neurodivergent & neurotypical people. (Also, they just think it's neat.)

Featuring: Aristotle's been dead for thousands of years, can we please move on; Pen's editorialized class notes; "Commune" vs. "-ation"; Animal Planet: Most Extreme Communication; Society's Unwritten Rules (ugh); The value in talking trash; Put some cereal and milk in your brain.


Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People: 

https://translifeline.org/

USA Suicide Prevention: 

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

International Suicide Hotlines: 

https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines

Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People: 

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/


Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:

https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte

Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:

https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/

https://stopaapihate.org/

Resources for US Immigrants:

https://www.informedimmigrant.com/

Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:

https://immigrationjustice.us/

Transcript

Pen: 0:13

Hello, and welcome to Beyond Introspection, a podcast about mental health, neurodivergence and how it impacts literally every aspect of our lives.

Harvey: 0:19

All of them.

Pen: 0:20

I'm Pen.

Harvey: 0:20

And I'm Harvey.

Pen: 0:21

And this week, we are going to be talking about communication theory.

Harvey: 0:27

I'm doing this at least in part because I'm tired and I don't feel like being smart, so I'm making Pen do it.

Pen: 0:33

You said you were--you said you were looking--that you were excited about it, I think.

Harvey: 0:38

Yeah.

Pen: 0:38

And that made me so happy because I've been like, oh, yeah, I think I can justify an episode on this, but like, I know, it's really self indulgent. And you're like, "Oh, I'm excited to hear about it." And I was like, real? Real? Not clickbait?

Harvey: 0:51

Real, not clickbait.

Pen: 0:53

But before we get into that, Harvey.

Harvey: 0:56

Pen.

Pen: 0:57

You have a Wahoo! Moment of the Week? I turned it around on you! I said it this time!

Harvey: 1:03

You did, and this is, I think, the fastest we've gotten into the Wahoo! Moment of the Week.

Pen: 1:07

Well, if we're going to get into comms theory stuff, I don't want to confuse people too much.

Harvey: 1:12

We might as well, yeah. Um, hmm. What was my Wahoo! Moment of the Week, because I haven't seen my boyfriend. So actually, I haven't seen any of them in the past week, which makes me sad. Because that is--that is goppers. "Gop" being"pog" backwards. If you don't know what pogchamp is, you can Google it. Anyway.

Pen: 1:32

It just means bad. Pog means good, gop means bad.

Harvey: 1:36

Yeah, I mean, I'm long distance with one of my partners. Another lives in a suburb of Chicago. And one's just busy. So I get around, but, hm, what have I been doing? I'm finally off of classes.

Pen: 1:51

Woo!

Harvey: 1:51

I did get a straight-A semester, which was pretty...

Pen: 1:53

Oh! Good job!

Harvey: 1:55

It was pretty poggers and epic. And I--

Pen: 1:57

I'm very proud of you!

Harvey: 1:58

Thank you. So yeah, I think that'll be my Wahoo! Momen of the Week, my super sexy GPA

Pen: 2:03

That's so great, Harvey. I know--I know that this semester wasn't easy for a lot of reasons, not in the least because like, we are still in a pandemic.

Harvey: 2:10

We're kind of coming out of it, but like...

Pen: 2:12

But yeah, good job.

Harvey: 2:14

Thank you. Pen.

Pen: 2:16

Yes, Harvey?

Harvey: 2:17

What's your Wahoo! Moment for Week?

Pen: 2:18

Will do the fun...?

Harvey: 2:19

Wahoo!

Pen: 2:20

Yay! Thank you. That should just be my Wahoo! Moment of the Week. No, I do have real one though.

Harvey: 2:25

Just just being like[mimicking calling a cat] Harvey!

Pen: 2:30

Yeah, so I have actually read real books, real physical books, lately, which I haven't done as much in recent years as I used to, though, like, that's a low bar, because I used to--like anytime I went anywhere, even if it was, like, the car ride to Walmart, though, in fairness, that was 30 to 45 minutes away. I would bring at least one book, often two. So like, you know what I said, I don't read as much as I used to. But I've been--I read one book that I've not even read before, which is wild, because usually I reread books because that's easier. Hi, I have ADHD. But I've been [stammering] rereading us and stuff by the author, Kristen Cashore.

Harvey: 3:12

Oh, yeah.

Pen: 3:13

She wrote Graceling. That was her first book and it got pretty popular, which, like, good job in your first book been pretty popular, Kristen Cashore. And I really like her writing. I think it's super cool. And it's--it, like, it introduces really neat fantasy elements, and then very quickly, like, showcases how that's actually really complicated and morally ambiguous sometimes. I think she does a good job. And also, she writes women characters who are allowed to have differing opinions and experiences and to want different sorts of things, and that's always shown as perfectly reasonable, and they never disrespect each other because of it. And I wish that the bar wasn't so low on that, but it is nice to have something where there's never women characters who are like, "Ugh, why would you want that?" It's like, Okay, what if we didn't write women as hating each other?

Harvey: 4:04

Yeah. What if we didn't pit women against each other, and we instead made them very supportive of each other's decisions?

Pen: 4:10

Yeah, real--real talk, or when there's--there's, like, a guy who tries to convince the protag of the first book to marry him, even though she has said many times that she never intends to marry anyone or have children, and he's like, "Oh, but someday you'll change your mind on that." And it is very much portrayed as like, okay, she's barely holding back on like punching this dude, and it would be totally fair if she did, and I'm like, yeah, Kristen!

Harvey: 4:35

Yeah.

Pen: 4:37

So that's my Wahoo! Moment, is it's been really nice to do that again. My back hurts from trying to find a place to read in the apartment.

Harvey: 4:44

My back also hurts, but it's not because I've been doing anything with my back--anything bad with my back, it's because I have chronic pain.

Pen: 4:51

Oh no!

Harvey: 4:52

I woke up with so much muscle pain.

Pen: 4:55

No! Then who's flying the plane?!

Harvey: 4:58

Well, certainly not me.

Pen: 5:00

Not me, either, because I have back pain.

Harvey: 5:02

Damn. Darn.

Pen: 5:04

Oops. Shucks.

Harvey: 5:06

Aw, shucks.

Pen: 5:08

Okay, so--like, get to the Wahoo! Moment really quickly, spend four minutes on it. That's okay. So yeah, communic-- communication theory!

Harvey: 5:21

Pen was a communication major in college.

Pen: 5:24

Yes, Communication Studies major, emphasis in Advocacy and Public Communication, though when I got into the program, it was called Rhetoric and Public Communication, and I definitely have feelings on that, because I liked that it was called that. But anyway, that's not the point. And I'm not gonna be talking about rhetorical theory today, though, certainly. I have many things to say on it. At least that, like, inherent... what if we stopped being obsessed with Aristo--? Anyway. Anyway.

Harvey: 5:50

Pen has such a vendetta against, like, B.C. era philosophers, and could you possibly blame them?

Pen: 5:57

Okay, Plato's obnoxious. So like, that's just true.

Harvey: 6:01

I don't know anything about the classic philosophers, so I can neither confirm nor deny that, but I believe you.

Pen: 6:06

Plato sucks. Aristotle, I don't actually mind Aristotle. It's jus, can we move on? Can we do something different? Modern? Anyway. We don't have--it's been literally millenia. Anyway, anyway. We're actually going to be talking about something that was coined in the 80s. '89, so, like, look at that! We have--there are new ideas in the world!

Harvey: 6:27

I was gonna say, that's only like 30 years ago.

Pen: 6:30

That's weird. Jeez, okay. Sure, the passage of time.

Harvey: 6:37

I know. It's not real. You have ADHD.

Pen: 6:39

I have ADHD. Yeah, we are going to be talking--well, I say we--I'm going to be talking about the academic side.

Harvey: 6:48

And I'm here for moral support!

Pen: 6:50

Though, obviously, like,a conversation on everything. But we're going to talk about, specifically the theory on transmission view of communication, and the ritual view of communication, which go together.

Harvey: 7:03

And Pen has gone off about this to me, like, a lot, typically when we drive.

Pen: 7:08

Oh, geez, I have, haven't I?

Harvey: 7:10

No, I love it. I love it.

Pen: 7:11

Aw, yay. It also--I briefly brought it up in our episode on death. Specifically, the ritual view of communication, and how our lack of death rituals harms us. Because we need ritual.

Harvey: 7:26

Right.

Pen: 7:28

So, I've got some basic definitions and things. I actually found my notes for the class I learned this, and I also found the PowerPoint on the instructor's website for it, so I have so much stuff.

Harvey: 7:42

Which is--this is just excellent. Yes.

Pen: 7:44

This was coined in--let's see, James W Carey coined it in 1989, in Communication as Culture: Essays on Media and Society. The actual thing is, like--because there's a link to it, of course, on the website, because we were supposed to do a reading on it. I don't think I actually read it. I might have, but I was a bad student.

Harvey: 8:07

And you still graduated summa cum laude.

Pen: 8:09

Yeah, that's the thing, is the system is broken. But yeah, so the actual thing is, like, horrible to look at, in terms of, like... let's see. I can only show you, so it's not as good but like, that is just...

Harvey: 8:25

Wow, that sucks.

Pen: 8:26

Yeah, it's just white background, a bunch of text.

Harvey: 8:29

Yeah, it's extremely dense. And, wait, can you try to scroll a little bit? I just want to see how small--okay, the scroll bar is not as small as I was expecting. But yeah, that--oh...

Pen: 8:40

Oh, yeah, now that I've scrolled all of it, I definitely didn't read this.

Harvey: 8:43

Lord God in heaven. Okay.

Pen: 8:45

I totally did not read that. Okay. That's okay, though,'cause, I mean, clearly, I didn't need to read it to have a good sense of it.

Harvey: 8:52

Like, we can sure link if you want, but...

Pen: 8:55

Sure, I'll drop the link. But anyway, so, obviously, I'm not going to take the definitions from that. I have them in my notes. So the transmission versus the ritual communication theories. Again, it's, like, the same theory, just on these different views. And they are viewed as, like, two sides of the same coin. So it's not, like, one versus the other, it's how we communicate. We communicate in both ways. The simplest way to put it is that transmission is about information, and ritual is about interaction. This is something--I love reading my old notes, because I editorialize in them.

Harvey: 9:33

That's the most Pen sentence I've ever heard.

Pen: 9:36

Yeah. You saw my rhetorical theory ones, I just, like, scribbled all over it. I use, like, different colored ink for my editorializing.

Harvey: 9:45

That seems like a good system.

Pen: 9:48

I have a parenthetical after that definition, "I was right about this being a simpler way of saying, it so that's cool." So apparently I had this idea, and I was like Dr. Gunkel? But yeah, transmission is about news, and ritual is about confirmation. The example that is used, or at least that I remember the instructor using, is that transmission communication is literally like a newspaper. Like, you are receiving new information.

Harvey: 10:17

Right.

Pen: 10:18

And ritual communication is like church. You're not getting new information, not really.'Cause like, it is the same Bible, though.

Harvey: 10:27

The bread of God is bread, bread is God is bread.

Pen: 10:28

Yeah. And I think I said this on the--the death episode as well, because I remember us saying bread is God--is God is bread. And so, like, that--going to church is more about sharing an experience and confirming something that you already know, versus reading the news is, well, first of all, depressing, but also, you are getting brand new information to process. In the US, at least, we tend to prioritize transmission communication, broad strokes, I would say. Though, ritual communication is still really, really important. It affirms our view of the world, of the people that we care about and interact with, or even the people that we don't care about, like small talk about the weather. It's--we understand this as a social interaction that isn't giving us new information, but it's still something that helps us understand how to socialize. And herein, we get to my personal justification for why this is an episode, besides just that I like it. So communication theory in general, the reason that I fell in love with it, the biggest one is because it is explicit rules for a world that has never really made sense to me.

Harvey: 11:51

Yeah, no, and that makes perfect sense.

Pen: 11:54

Like, I would sometimes ask, and sometimes just wonder, like, why do we do this? Why aren't we just talking about this? Why do we--what is going on here? And communication theory, in part, examines literally why we do these things. Like social scripts, is not just communication theory. It's also I think, maybe sociology or psychology, but...

Harvey: 12:19

Uh, not in psych, I don't think, at least not in the areas of psych that I study. But probably soc, yeah.

Pen: 12:26

Communication Studies, sometimes, especially in, like, interpersonal comms and things like that, you enter into things where it's, like, this was not originally a communication theory, but that's okay, because it is now

Harvey: 12:36

Well, and something that me and Pen have observed when we've talked about the similarities between psychology

Pen: 12:40

Yes, especially, like, communication studies, as a and communication, because there are actually a remarkable amount of similarities between the ields. Psych tends to look at th field, has been around for a long time in terms of studying rhetoric, but in terms of the more social science based thing, ngs at the very micro level, soc looks at things that sor of--somewhat of a macro level and then communication fal s in bet is much newer, and I think really does work well, is like a combination of psych amd soc, and that's part of what I love about it.

Harvey: 13:18

I very nearly switched my major to communications also, because I didn't like psychology. But, I like psychology again. Turns out I just didn't like my classmates.

Pen: 13:29

Yeah, that's actually a big mood. Like, I love communication studies as a field. I also hate communications studies as a field. primarily because of the scholars, and also I hated all of my classmates almost 100% of the time.

Harvey: 13:40

Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.

Pen: 13:42

And at least one of my instructors.

Harvey: 13:47

Not going to name drop her, but I don't like her.

Pen: 13:49

No. [Unintelligible] last episode on humor, here's

a--here's an idea for you: 13:52

don't joke about slitting your wrists because your students didn't understand your question.

Harvey: 13:57

Yeah, that is not epic. Mnot very poggers.

Pen: 14:01

No. But the relevance of talking about communication theory, and specifically ritual versus transmission communication theory, it can explain some of the miscommunications that happen between neurodivergent and neurotypical people.

Harvey: 14:13

Oh, yes.

Pen: 14:16

It's--particularly when it comes to transmission communication, which I'll get to. And then I love comms theory as an explanation for rules. And, like-- we live in a society.

Harvey: 14:29

Ooga booga.

Pen: 14:30

We live in--we live in a society, and we have to live in a society and we don't really get a choice about it.

Harvey: 14:35

Yeah.

Pen: 14:36

Which is something that we've talked about before. Like, part of being neurodivergent is the social problems that come from it.

Harvey: 14:44

Yeah. It's--it's not the--it's not the only thing, but deviance from societal norms is a major part of how mental illness and neurodivergence gets defined.

Pen: 14:57

And understanding the rules doesn't always make it easy for me, but it can make it easier, and if nothing else can, like, help explain our existence in part.

Harvey: 15:07

Yeah.

Pen: 15:10

Yes, and it might not have a direct link is psychology, just sort of by virtue of what psychology is,

Harvey: 15:17

Literally studying the brain.

Pen: 15:19

It's definitely relevant by virtue of being social science, particularly one that has to do with people communicating, because that's a lot of how--sometimes, depending on, of course, the--the diagnosis in particular--but that is one of the things that will come up as, like, a symptom, is how we communicate.

Harvey: 15:37

And here's what I'll say: I know a lot of people say, empathy is what makes us human. One, no, that's ableist. Two, I actually think that the thing that makes us human is communication through language. Because, you know, other--other species do communicate, but humans are the ones that are uniquely equipped with language. We are some of the only animals on the planet that communicate specifically... huh?

Pen: 16:06

Sorry, I said Animal Planet because I just--it--it was in my brain.

Harvey: 16:09

No, that's fair.

Pen: 16:10

Most extreme communication. Anyway, keep talking.

Harvey: 16:14

So, yeah, like humans are--we communicate in a way that is so distinct and unique from other animals? And that is--that is I think, the thing that makes us uniquely human, and why this is salient to discussions on mental health, neurodivergence, and how it impacts literally every aspect of our lives.

Pen: 16:35

Absolutely. And actually, in terms of us being--of us communicating and that being something that--that is really relevant, and makes us human, the definition for rhetoric, which, again, I'm not going to go fully into rhetoric here, but since it is related to communication theory, and my love of it, the definition for rhetoric that I've always liked the most, and luckily, that it was the first one I learned, which I think made my study of rhetoric, especially at the beginning, a lot more tolerable, because it was less classical, and therefore classist, to come down to it. But anyway, um, it was from my rhetorical criticism textbook, which I can look up the author of it. Actually, I might be able to see-- No, I can't. Okay, well. The author defined it as the human use of symbols to communicate.

Harvey: 17:33

Yeah, and I do want to be very clear, when I say language, and I say communication, I don't just mean--I don't just mean verbal, because there are plenty of people who are nonverbal. I'm talking about communication in every way that it manifests, whether that be through sign language, whether that be through--potentially giving gifts in some situations could be a form of communication. Sounds, even if it's not verbalizing, even if it's not language, it's--it's--it's some way to communicate a feeling. So, when I say communication, I don't just mean language, I mean all of the minutae.

Pen: 18:14

Oh, absolutely. And, like, symbol as a definition, like, a symbol can be--

Harvey: 18:20

Which is totally based on symbolic interactionism.

Pen: 18:23

It can be, like, anything can be a symbol.

Harvey: 18:26

Yeah.

Pen: 18:27

It does not have to be spoken word, which is what differs this definition of rhetoric from the others, and part of why like it.

Harvey: 18:32

Letters and words are symbols.

Pen: 18:34

Yes. A movie poster is a symbol, a sound bite, a hand wave.

Harvey: 18:43

All kinds of things.

Pen: 18:44

And Hello Kitty Kiss dolls.

Harvey: 18:46

Right. Anything that is meant to signify meaning, really.

Pen: 18:53

Yeah. Which I think is a much more interesting way to study rhetoric. Anyway.

Harvey: 18:56

I agree.

Pen: 18:57

So thank you, Sonja K. Foss, is who wrote the textbook.

Harvey: 19:01

Ah.

Pen: 19:03

Seeing Foss, like, just sent me back to that class. I was like, oh, right, yeah, Foss. I cited you so many times. Yeah, that's--that is why, I think, this is a relevant thing to talk about. Specifically, transmission versus ritual. Again, transmission being information-based, ritual being more interaction-based. Here was another editorial thing that I had. Most--I'm looking at this--most of my brief notes on transmission versus ritual communication theories does seem to be--at least a third of it is just me editorializing, and it's not even half a page, so...

Harvey: 19:40

Love that.

Pen: 19:42

I have in brackets,"Thought: transmission is about the -ation," which is the action, you know, process or result of an action or process,"and the ritual is about the commun- part. Sharing thoughts and feeling close."

Harvey: 19:57

Here's what I'm going to tell you about editorializing, Pen. That's actually really helpful to learning.

Pen: 20:03

Yes.

Harvey: 20:05

Psychologically speaking, being able to make your own connections and think about things in ways that are just not purely academic is actually super good for learning.

Pen: 20:14

The thing that people say about the best way to make sure you know something is to be able to explain it to someone else.

Harvey: 20:20

And, well.

Pen: 20:23

Yeah, that is--that is what I'm doing here. But my sort of--a lot of the reason that I--that I love transmission and ritual communication so much, though, I did forget that I phrased it particularly this way as I do see them, and they are supposed to be, like, two sides of the same coin, but, like, as part of it, like, if you just split up the word, you know, ritual for the commun-, transmission for the -ation, which I like a lot. And how this sort of ties in more is, there is a tendency, I think, sometimes--so ritual communication is super, super cool, and I love it to death, and it is undervalued, I would say, broad strokes. Another really good--the example that the instructor used is when people are like texting their friends after school, and their parents are like, "Why are you texting your friend? What happened new between school and now that you have to tell them?" Answer is, like, nothing new happened. It's talking without presenting new information reassert reaffirms closeness and cohesion. It's not less valuable, because it's not new. It's just a different kind of value.

Harvey: 21:29

Yeah, I mean...

Pen: 21:30

Which was, like, great for him to say.

Harvey: 21:32

Again, humans are, generally speaking, social animals. There are--there are certain exceptions. Folks with schizoid personality disorder tend to prefer to be alone, genuinely. But yeah, I mean, reinforcing those bonds is, I mean, that--that is a very human thing.

Pen: 21:53

Yeah. It is a very--it's a very necessary thing for us.

Harvey: 21:56

Yeah. No matter who you are.

Pen: 21:58

Oh, yeah. And that's why I love--that's why I love this theory so much, is it--it under--it underlines the value of it, and the use of it. And that it is not--we don't just communicate in one way. And we don't necessarily, like--it can be perhaps a bit reductive to say we communicate in two ways, but, like, as broad categories and modes.

Harvey: 22:19

If we consider this two ends of a spectrum.

Pen: 22:21

Basically, yeah.

Harvey: 22:22

And then there are probably various different permutations and combinations.

Pen: 22:26

Sure, sure. But I think it is useful for, like, contrast.

Harvey: 22:30

Yeah, sometimes prerogatives like that are helpful.

Pen: 22:34

Especially as, like, these are both useful. These are both valuable. These are just different things that we do, which is great. Like I said, sometimes, like, ritual communication can be harder to pinpoint.

Harvey: 22:48

Which makes sense.

Pen: 22:48

It can be a little bit more implicit, and therefore easier to miss social cues wise.

Harvey: 22:56

Uh-huh.

Pen: 22:58

Uh-huh. So this is where we come into the use of talking about this sheerly in terms of neurodivergence.

Harvey: 23:03

See? It's relevant.

Pen: 23:04

It's--oh, yeah. There's--there's some of that miscommunication that can happen between neurodivergent and neurotypical people, constantly, all the time,

Harvey: 23:14

Always. It doesn't stop.

Pen: 23:16

It doesn't. Particularly when neurodivergent people respond to a neurotypicals' pers--neurotypical person's attempt at transmission--at ritual communication, with transmission communication, and I just said a lot of things there. So I'll--I'll rephrase it. But when it's a neurotypical person talking about something, and they're intending it as ritual communication, oh, I should have thought of an example before this.

Harvey: 23:44

Um, I'm thinking phrases. Like--like--like figures of speech. I'm...

Pen: 23:51

Mm-hmm.

Harvey: 23:51

Give me a minute. I feel like there was an example recently. I'm trying to think of, like, a common phrase, you know?

Pen: 24:02

Yeah, that would be... there is also, like, just in terms of--I mean, we could go back to the church example, if we wanted to. In terms of like, one, questioning things that are considered inappropriate to question, because the point of ritual communication is just to sort of reaffirm a thing. Not to--not necessarily to question it, or to add in more barriers or new information, which is fine, but can sometimes be, you know, complicated. And so, let's see, you might have a neurodivergent kid who asks why you do something at church. Like, why--why do we all kneel sometimes? Or like, why are we reading this very old hymn book? Why don't we get something newer and that's considered, like, inappropriate, because there are these unwritten rules. for it.

Harvey: 25:00

Yeah.

Pen: 25:02

Which is not at all exclusive to, like, the--the ritual view of communication as, like, why it has the unwritten rules, but like, the unwritten rules are a big part of it, kind of.

Harvey: 25:11

Yeah.

Pen: 25:12

And so, when they ask questions, and it's like, "Well, that's very rude." And it's like, oooookay,

Harvey: 25:18

So I'm just not allowed to understand, but at the same time, I'm expected to understand?

Pen: 25:24

Yeah, that's a big one. Or asking rhetorical questions sometimes as a form of it.

Harvey: 25:30

That--that's actually something that comes up for me a lot, where people will ask me a rhetorical question, and I will answer it, and they were like,"You weren't supposed to..." that's like, well, [heavy breathing] then why did you ask?!

Pen: 25:41

Exactly. Or, let me see. Ooh! Ooh! Ooh, ooh, ooh! Okay, now I've got now got a real--a real one. When people will complain about a thing, which is--might seem like a--sort of a strange bit of ritual communication, because I've talked about how it's great for affirming and--and making cohesion and things. But legitimately, this is something I used to say is one of the most useful ways to pull people together is to have a person that nobody likes to talk about.

Harvey: 26:15

Oh, yep.

Pen: 26:17

And we can see this in a lot of ways. It doesn't have to be, like, the coworker, everyone hates, though that's what happens a lot of time. It's also, like, politics and things, or everyone in the state hating the governor, things like that. Where you have a common person, and you complain about them, or a situation that you complain about, and everyone knows that, in complaining about it, you're not actually trying to solve anything. Except sometimes that's not always clear. And I have--I have fallen into this where people are, like, complaining about something. And I'll bring up like, oh, yeah, we could do this about it, or yeah, this is a part, like--like, going in more depth. I was like, this is what really sucks. And everyone kind of looks like, uncomfortable. And they're like,"I--that's not really... okay." And I'm like, I mean, you were complaining about it? Surely there's more information that can be brought in here.

Harvey: 27:10

Although you've also been on the other side of that, where sometimes you just want to complain about a thing, and you're not really looking for advice.

Pen: 27:16

Yes, that is--it is a complicated sort of thing. And it's--it is imperfect, it is very--it's part of the issue of so many things being expected to be, like, unclear and implicit. But that--that instinct that I think a lot of neurodivergent people have, to offer information if something is unclear. I think a lot of the time we tend to default to a more transmission view, in part because it's a lot more straightforward.

Harvey: 27:48

Yeah.

Pen: 27:49

There's nothing--there's no unwritten rules in this. You just--"Oh yeah, I have information, I can give it to you. I know a thing. That would be useful here, right?"

Harvey: 27:55

I will give you information back.

Pen: 27:57

Yeah, this is--this is communication. And it is. But sometimes it is unwanted. And when you introduce ritual communica--if--when you introduce transmission communication to a ritual situation, it is viewed as very rude, almost exclusively. Which is really tough to deal with, especially if you are a kid, and it's all like... okay, but why?

Harvey: 28:24

And nobody wants to tell you why.

Pen: 28:26

No, in part because they don't know.

Harvey: 28:30

Other--other times because they just don't feel like explaining/ It depends.

Pen: 28:34

Or that it's, like, inappropriate to explain it, even.

Harvey: 28:37

And it's like, well[whimpering]

Pen: 28:38

And that drives me wild, too, when it's like, okay, so it's inappropriate to ask, but y'all do actually know the answer. It's just that if we actually flesh it out, then it's bad. Like--

Harvey: 28:52

Maybe because you realize how stupid it sounds.

Pen: 28:55

Like, y'all realize this is nothing right? Really?

Harvey: 28:59

Like, y'all know.

Pen: 29:00

Okay, sure. You can do whatever you want, I guess. But that's-- that is why--that is why I think it is so useful to know these things, is because, sometimes, it can really help to have the context of it. To know, like, okay, I am trying to communicate something that is really just me saying words are being responded to with, like, sympathy, instead of advice. Or knowing, like, okay, no, I--this is--this is an information-based exchange. Like, knowing the rules of that can make it so much easier to navigate.

Harvey: 29:40

Oh, yes.

Pen: 29:41

It is. Oh, again, it's a lot of why I love it.

Harvey: 29:46

Mm-hm.

Pen: 29:50

Ooh! Oh, um, decent--actually decent parts that are pulled from from the PowerPoint on ritrual versus transmission. This is what Carey said: "Transmission view is the commonist in our culture, perhaps in all industrial cultures," and that is something, and it dominates dictionary entries under the term of communication, "is formed from metaphor of geography or transportation." I think that's a particularly interesting point, and, like, I definitely think that he's right, in terms of, like, it being a very industrial society kind of thing.

Harvey: 30:26

Yeah.

Pen: 30:27

Because we prioritize that, kind of a lot.

Harvey: 30:32

Oh, yeah. Just sort of, like, industrial communication in the--in the sense that, you know, industry necessitates the exchange of information, and often efficiently. Like, quickly, that sort of thing. So that--certainly, that permeates into--into, you know, what...

Pen: 30:55

Just everyday communication, and what we--what we prefer.

Harvey: 30:58

Right.

Pen: 30:58

And that's actually one of the ways in which it can be sort of flipped on, like, virtual communication can be so implicit and hard for neurodivergent people to read, and so we default the transmission. And yet, at other times, the, like, expected efficiency, and speed, and, like--the expected, and, like, broadly understood definition of effective or appropriate transmission communication doesn't work for us at all.

Harvey: 31:30

Right.

Pen: 31:30

And we need to do things like... aw man, stim. Or you and me, when we repeat absolute nonsense phrases to each other. It is...

Harvey: 31:40

For so long.

Pen: 31:41

It is absolutely a form of communication, but we're not exchanging new information, we are reaffirming, like..

Harvey: 31:49

We are friends, and we onder--and [with Pen] we understand each other.

Pen: 31:54

And, like, that is viewed as, like, a stranger one, or a less appropriate one. So it's like, obviously, deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply relative.

Harvey: 32:05

Yeah.

Pen: 32:08

And we tend to be on the outside of the broadly understood thing, which is not a surprise, really. Which it's... it is what it is. Oh, shoot! I forgot about this! Dang, I wish I actually scrolled through this beforehand. I have so much ADHD.

Harvey: 32:27

That's okay. I respect you.

Pen: 32:29

Newspaper being viewed under both. Under a transmission view, you see it as an instrument for disseminating news and knowledge. News is enlightening, or obscuring, reality, changing our hardening attitudes, breeding credibility or doubt. But under a ritual view, reading a newspaper is less sending or gaining, more as a particular view of the world is portrayed and confirmed. So, more of a story.

Harvey: 33:01

Ohhh.

Pen: 33:01

Um, well, confirmation bias, frankly, sometimes. But also, it's just, like, the consistent way that we tend to write news and read it. And it's like, okay, I understand this. I'm not necessarily learning a ton from it, because I either already anticipated this, or already knew this story, but like, seeing it and reading it reaffirms that the world is the way that I understand it.

Harvey: 33:28

Mm-hm.

Pen: 33:28

Which, there can be harmful parts of that, but also, the world is so big, and human brains are not.

Harvey: 33:34

Yes.

Pen: 33:35

So we need this.

Harvey: 33:37

Yeah, yeah.

Pen: 33:39

So that's, um... dang, it's, uh, a lot of--I think I've said a lot of things that probably don't make sense to everyone who's been listening to this. But in the end, like, one, I just think it's cool.

Harvey: 33:56

It is.

Pen: 33:57

I just think it's neat. It's also useful for understanding ourselves and each other, and how we communicate and why. And for, I think, appreciating some of the ways that we communicate.

Harvey: 34:08

Yeah, and I think it's really important, you know, kind of like you were alluding to, and sort of validation aspect that, like, okay, so, no, it actually does make perfect sense that sometimes the rest of the world doesn't make any sense to me.

Pen: 34:22

Yes, yeah.

Harvey: 34:23

Because, you know, despite the fact that at least--society in the United States prioritizes transmission communication, there's still, like, a lot of ritual communication going on, and most of it is not explained to us. But then there's also, like--there is sort of the intracommunity ritual communication.

Pen: 34:46

Yes, yes, very much so. How we affirm our own identities as something that exists, whether that is through complaining

about a thing. Read: 34:54

the Midwest and the weather.

Harvey: 35:00

Let me just sneak right past you and grab the ranch.

Pen: 35:06

Or--or if it's something that's just to kind of center us and make it, like, okay, the world does make sense. All right. Okay, sure. Or, God, rewatching a TV show over and over again, too. There are so many things like memes, inside jokes. It's all ritual communication, and it's all important communication, because it's how we handle the world. And, as usual, neurodivergent people don't quite click with the broader social expectations of it.

Harvey: 35:40

Yeah.

Pen: 35:41

Which is what it is, but our own forms of it, I think are very neat.

Harvey: 35:45

Yeah, I think that the way that we communicate is really cool.

Pen: 35:48

Yeah. And also, just as useful and just as valuable. Like, part of, again, part of why I love virtual versus transmission view is that it affirms these different types of communication as not mutually exclusive, and also as both valuable, just in different ways. The way that neurodivergent people communicate, it's not always, like, it's complex on whether it differs or is similar to neurotypical people, and also, even among neurodivergent people, like, you and I miscommunicate sometimes in ways that are just, like, well, if I take a step back, it's like, oh, okay, so we just missed this one little thing, but also, like, geez.

Harvey: 36:26

Yeah, and--and some of that has to do with, like--like, it's sort of the clash between Pen being very, very into communication and communicating in what they think is the most, like, direct and efficient way, and me taking everything very, very literally. Which, me taking things literally has to do with autism, which, the fact that I take things so literally, and also my inability to read tone, is responsible for a lot of our miscommunication.

Pen: 36:57

And sometimes it's me just, like, totally missing that something isn't obvious because of ADHD brain that jumps from point A to point E with, I feel, a very, like, direct and clear bridge, and to someone else is like, I--I don't know what just happened. I--I needed C and D.

Harvey: 37:19

I think in a very, like, methodical, step-by-step, like--okay, this thing happens, and then this thing happens. And then that thing happens after that, so...

Pen: 37:29

And so it--it clashes sometimes, and that's what it is.

Harvey: 37:33

I rely very heavily on transmission communication.

Pen: 37:35

And my transmission communication is sometimes, like, so blunt and direct that it is--it is like being punched, sometimes, I think.

Harvey: 37:46

Thwhack.

Pen: 37:47

Whoops. Yeah, so it's--it is a complex thing. And it is--it is also valuable, the way that we communicate. And I think, sometimes, the way that neurodivergent people communicate can tell us a lot about the world, and a lot about--about every part of it. It's--I've said several times the part of the reason that I love communication theory is because it's explicit, written down rules for the world that just didn't make sense before, and now I just have this little rulebook. And it's, like, great.

Harvey: 38:25

And it's like, hoho, that's why that happens.

Pen: 38:27

And this is a thought that I had before we started recording, is, um, so for me, looking at this, it gave me a way to understand neurotypical people better and to understand society better. And I think part of the reason--that, like--that's why I love it, one of many reasons. I think part of the reason that I don't always vibe with other scholars of it, and with all my classmates, is that is not something that is reciprocated. In studying communication theory, they didn't understand me better. They didn't learn more about being neurodivergent, or not understanding these things implicitly. Like, maybe they had it spelled out to them for the first time in their lives, but they didn't get--it wasn't as valuable to them as it was to me. They weren't getting a manual for the first time in their lives. They were, like, ph, okay, that's why I do that, then. And I'm like, ugh, that's why you do this. Okay.

Harvey: 39:23

That's why it makes no sense to me.

Pen: 39:26

Yes. That's hard.

Harvey: 39:29

Yeah, it's--it's--yeah, no, that that is really... I can imagine that that would be really difficult, like, knowing that, like, this is something so revolutionary and important to you, and for other folks. It's really just mundane and something that they might forget about.

Pen: 39:44

And something that, like, when people study communication... I'm just going to go out on a limb here. The vast majority are not studying neurodivergent communication. There are are exceptions to this. In, oh God, what's the episode on autism? I think I brought up somebody who was--it was so--it was stuff that they had shared that actually sparked the podcast. And I forgot their name in the moment. But it's Remi Yergeau. Oh, yeah. Did at least a whole book on autism and rhetoric. So there are some people who do study it. The vast majority do not. And so it is this one way street of like, y'all would understand the world and how this communication happens so much better if you would look outside of yourselves.

Harvey: 40:38

Yeah. And I know that there's a lot of discourse around, like, differently abled versus disabled, and which terms are proper to use. I think in this situation, it is useful to think about it as different communication, rather than lesser communication.

Pen: 40:54

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Harvey: 40:55

Or less functional communication, what have you.

Pen: 40:57

It is fundamentally just different.

Harvey: 40:59

Yeah. And it's--and it's--if I, a neurodivergent person, tried to communicate with my mom in the way that I communicate with Pen, that wouldn't work.

Pen: 41:12

No, no.

Harvey: 41:13

Much like how, when people communicate with me, broad strokes I don't understand. But, you know, and that's the point of communication, isn't it? Like--like, this is just my, you know, my layperson thing. That's the point of communication, right? To be able to communicate with people who are immediately around you to be able--to have that transmission of communication and--er, that of information and of strengthening those bonds. So, I think, in some ways, just having those--those different forms of communication is actually really helpful.

Pen: 41:48

Oh, hugely, yeah. It's--it matters so much that we have multiple forms of it, and it matters that we recognize and value those forms. And honestly, like, the number of things that go into it, like ableism, racism, for sure. Like, there's a reason that we don't value ritual communication as much. Part of it is because of being an industrial society, and part of it is because the undervaluing, and dismissal, and violence towards non white cultures, and, you know, colonialism and all that, and not recognizing that, like, the ritual communication of other cultures is just as valuable. It's pretty messed up. Pretty destructive, pretty, hugely wrong.

Harvey: 42:45

It's--it gets really upsetting when you realize just how much of everyday life is--is just imbued in things like racism, and sexism, and so on and so forth.

Pen: 42:56

And this is--this is definitely one way about it, is, like, in part, I think, because ritual communication is so implicit, it is--it can be harder to see it as valuable when it is not something that you are personally experiencing. And that's, like, that's something that, you know, we experience with, like, I think some might consider it a stretch to call stimming ritual communication, but I think it's useful, or even just like, how you and I babble at each other and things. And it's like, mm, well, that's odd. And it's like, it is very similar to you going to church on Sundays. And it's similar to you talking to your friends about an incident that happened in the office last week, and having inside jokes. These all fall under the same thing. They are all valuable.

Harvey: 43:42

Yeah, look without context, like, hii.

Pen: 43:47

Heeeeeello.

Harvey: 43:47

That makes about as much sense as "Hurricane Katrina? More like Hurricane Tortilla!" If you know the reference, it makes sense. But no context, those are both like, what are you saying?

Pen: 44:00

And that is--that is where we see some of the issue. Like transmission communication, like we said, that's a lot more straightforward. Exchange of information. But ritual communication can be a lot harder to recognize if you don't know what it is and can't respect that, like--I'm gonna paraphrase something the instructor said, talking trash is valuable. Sometimes we need to just talk trash.

Harvey: 44:24

Sometimes. So, Pen.

Pen: 44:26

Harvey.

Harvey: 44:27

We should be wrapping up.

Pen: 44:28

We should. Yes.

Harvey: 44:29

Are there any closing thoughts you have about communication that you can fit into the end of this episode?

Pen: 44:37

might have been a little bit rambley, or it might have been a little bit, like, atypical for--for an episode and I hope that it didn't turn folks off too much. I think it is useful. I think it's valuable. I am deeply biased on that, because I studied this, and also because I love it.

Harvey: 44:54

And I'm biased because I'm your friend.

Pen: 44:55

Yay! I mean, like, this is about about communication and recognizing that it is about exchanging information. And it's also about just affirming ourselves and each other. It's about recognizing the communication is about community, and it is also about information, and how useful that can be in understanding the world and each other. And I think that's, that's good food for thought sometimes, is like, if someone's doing something that doesn't seem to make sense for you, that might be something that they're using to affirm the world around them, and trying to engage with that or just recognizing it as something that has value, I think, can be very, very good to keep in mind.

Harvey: 45:42

Yeah.

Pen: 45:43

Do you have any closing thoughts, Harvey?

Harvey: 45:45

I don't think so.

Pen: 45:47

No thoughts. Head empty.

Harvey: 45:49

My head is a bit empty. I'm quite tired.

Pen: 45:52

Oh no! Gotta put something in there. What will we put in your head?

Harvey: 45:57

I'm gonna--well, not not in my brain, but in my head region, I'm going to put food in it soon because I think that's part of why I'm tired.

Pen: 46:05

That is very good.

Harvey: 46:07

So...

Pen: 46:07

Put some cereal and milk in your brain.

Harvey: 46:10

Go crunch crunch. So stick around for just...

Pen: 46:15

Squish.

Harvey: 46:15

No! So, stick around--stick around for just a few more moments. We'll tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is run, and our Patreon.

Pen: 46:26

Just stick a spoon in your ear.

Harvey: 46:28

No! I'm already hard of hearing! Beyond Introspection is an independently-run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at ByndPodcast or you can email us at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com. That's beyond d-o-t podcast, no spaces. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description.

Pen: 46:58

We also have a Patreon. You can find us at patreon.com/beyondintrospection. That's all one word. We also have links to it on our site and on our social media. Our podcast is entirely independent, so we pay for hosting fees and transcript service subscriptions out of pocket. This is a passion project that we're really happy to do, and any support you're able to give us would really make a difference. On our Patreon there are four tiers: $2, which gives you access to test audio and other bloopers; $5 which will give you access to bonus episodes that will make in the future, on topics like how angry we are Freud, our frustrations with our respective fields of studies and even guest episodes; $10 will get you a direct line and priority access to request episode topics and new bonus content; and $15, which will give you access to monthly AMAs--that's ask me anything for those who don't know--where we can answer questions ranging from the podcast process and we figure out what to record, more in depth questions about our neurodivergences, and more. All of those tiers will include benefits from lower tiers of course. And also just to note, unlike our regular episodes, Patreon bonus content is likely to include swearing, so if that's not your vibe, please know that ahead of time. We'd also love it if you're able to share this podcast with people you know. Our only advertising is word of mouth and we want to reach as many people as possible.

Harvey: 48:14

Got feedback for us? Want to request an episode topic? Just feel like saying hello? Feel free to reach out on social media, or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.