BEYOND Basics - Coping & Humor

Harvey and Pen discuss how mentally ill and neurodivergent people often turn to humor as a form of coping.

Featuring: Mental health jokes: The good, the bad, and the unhealthy; What's "deviant" changes with context; The surprising relevance of a speech Pen competed with two years ago; "Wanna hear what I took my Zoloft with tonight?"; My brain is not your punchline; & stay tuned for Harvey's TikTok audio at the very end

Note: We discuss jokes about being suicidal and having suicidal thoughts at several points in this episode. Though we make none of the jokes ourselves, phrases like "I want to kill myself" do pop up in the discussion.

Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People: 

https://translifeline.org/

USA Suicide Prevention: 

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

International Suicide Hotlines: 

https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines

Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People: 

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/


Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:

https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte

Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:

https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/

https://stopaapihate.org/

Resources for US Immigrants:

https://www.informedimmigrant.com/

Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:

https://immigrationjustice.us/

Transcript

Pen: 0:12

Welcome to Beyond introspection, a podcast about mental health, neurodivergence and how it impacts our life in literally every aspect.

Harvey: 0:19

All of them.

Pen: 0:21

I'm Pen.

Harvey: 0:21

And I'm Harvey.

Pen: 0:23

And they just spoken to a glass that had water in it. That was what that sound was.

Harvey: 0:29

I have to be funny every time I say, "all of them."

Pen: 0:32

Well, you're very naturally funny. And--oh! Oh, did you mean for that to be the segue than it is into what the episode topic is?

Harvey: 0:39

Not at all.

Pen: 0:40

Well, we're talking about jokes.

Harvey: 0:43

And not just any kind of jokes, the jokes that neurodivergent people make. The good, the bad and the unhealthy.

Pen: 0:50

And also, I think, jokes about neurodivergence and mental illness more broadly, which does include, sometimes, the jokes that neurotypical people make that are, like, what's the word, bad?

Harvey: Cmo se dice (ENG: 1:04

How do you say it), awful?

Pen: 1:07

Yeah, yeah, where it's just--don't.

Harvey: 1:10

Shut up.

Pen: 1:12

Okay, I have some--well, when I say notes, I'll show you, there are four bullet points, and they're all one line.

Harvey: 1:20

Now, there are four bullet points, and then there's a fifth that's a sub-bullet point.

Pen: 1:24

Yeah. And they're all--that's not many words.

Harvey: 1:27

No, that's okay.

Pen: 1:27

When I say, 'notes,' I just mean general things that I intended to talk about.

Harvey: 1:32

But! But, but, but.

Pen: 1:33

Oh, right. Yeah.

Harvey: 1:36

You sounded--you sounded so upset. Disappointed.

Pen: 1:38

No, I'm not upset. I'm not upset.

Harvey: 1:41

Pen.

Pen: 1:42

Harvey.

Harvey: 1:42

Will you tell me about your Wahoo! Moment of the Week? I know. I didn't say it in the fun voice. I'm sleepy.

Pen: 1:49

So are you--are you, is it too sleepy to do it in the fun voice?

Harvey: 1:53

Wahoo!

Pen: 1:53

Thank you. Does that have a genuinely impact? Like, if you're tired, then that's--

Harvey: 2:00

It takes more effort when I'm tired.

Pen: 2:02

You know what? That's fair. That's fair. I appreciate you. Yeah, so it wasn't technically this week, because I believe it was last Sunday.

Harvey: 2:09

Whatever, time's fake.

Pen: 2:12

I have ADH, and let me say, it is. Oh, God it is. But yeah, so it was technically last week. But who cares? I dyed my hair, which makes me very, very happy when I do it.

Harvey: 2:29

It's green.

Pen: 2:30

It's green now, which I wasn't--I didn't go into dyeing my hair intending for it to be green. But through a series of events, it became green, which is--I like dyeing my hair, so it made me go hmm.

Harvey: 2:42

Hmm.

Pen: 2:43

Oh, that's happy sound, for people who--I smile when I make that sound.

Harvey: 2:47

Yes. That's true.

Pen: 2:49

For our--for everyone who can't see us, which is everyone who's listening to this.

Harvey: 2:53

Except me.

Pen: 2:54

Except Harvey. Harvey, what's your Wahoo! Moment of the Week?

Harvey: 2:58

What is my Wahoo! Moment of the Week? Well, you did see your boyfriend so Shut up. Yes, I did see my boyfriend. I've been talking--so, I'm polyamorous. I've got three now. I've just been collecting boyfriends.

Pen: 3:14

"Gotta catch 'em all," is a joke I made yesterday...

Harvey: 3:16

Yes.

Pen: 3:17

...when we went on a walk.

Harvey: 3:17

It was a joke that you made yesterday. Oh! We did go on a walk, and it was extremely nice.

Pen: 3:21

It was nice. We went to a local forest preserve.

Harvey: 3:24

And it was very cool, and we saw some fish.

Pen: 3:26

We did! Oh, right, I forgot about the fish. The fish were cool.

Harvey: 3:29

And then we saw some kind of construction happening that we definitely weren't supposed to be near, but like...

Pen: 3:35

We weren't supposed to go on the other trail that was, like, leading to it.

Harvey: 3:39

It just happened to loop around, and that doesn't seem like my problem.

Pen: 3:43

That's certainly not mine.

Harvey: 3:45

But yeah, outside, three boyfriends. I'm so powerful.

Pen: 3:51

You say while so, so tired.

Harvey: 3:55

It's true. I can definitely imagine how accentuated my under-eye bags look, considering I don't have my glasses on.

Pen: 4:04

Oh, wow, now that you point it out, I do see them a bit. I want you to know I wasn't going to see him before, because ADHD stands for "I Don't Have Eyes Disease." It doesn't match up. It doesn't.

Harvey: 4:15

I was--it almost does.

Pen: 4:16

It almost does, but no, no, it's just--

Harvey: 4:18

ADHED.

Pen: 4:20

Means "I haven't seen anything in," checks watch, "23 years."

Harvey: 4:24

So I said ADHED, because if there was the E, it would say--it would say "I Don't Have Eyes Disease," but, well.

Pen: 4:33

Well.

Harvey: 4:34

Well.

Pen: 4:35

Well.

Harvey: 4:36

Anyway.

Pen: 4:37

Anyway, jokes. Jokes that we make, and the jokes that are made at us.

Harvey: 4:45

And about us.

Pen: 4:45

And about us.

Harvey: 4:48

Ah, Pen thinks I'm very funny.

Pen: 4:51

I--mm, let me--let me just real quick, Pen knows that you're very funny.

Harvey: 4:57

All of this to say, I make many, many jokes, all the time, which are sometimes at the expense of my neurodivergence, not always at the expense, but involving.

Pen: 5:07

Yes, yeah. Which is--which is an important distinction, I think, like, in talking about jokes that have to do with neurodivergence and mental illness, because, you know, that separation, I think, is particularly notable when it comes to depression and being suicidal, versus, like, I'm gonna joke about my ADHD all day.

Harvey: 5:25

Yeah.

Pen: 5:25

And that feels distinctly different than when I used to joke about being suicidal, which was not a healthy coping mechanism.

Harvey: 5:32

No, but it's a very common one.

Pen: 5:35

An extremely common one. I did a speech on it when I was in forensics.

Harvey: 5:40

Oh, that's right.

Pen: 5:40

Yeah, it was after dinner speaking, which is a speech that's a little bit humorous. And I was like, I want to talk about suicide jokes. And everyone in the room was like,"Okay,"

Harvey: 5:50

After--I will never get over just how specific forensics categories are.

Pen: 5:55

It's like, you know, if you go to some kind of event, and then someone comes up, and they gave a little speech, and it's meant to be like, oh, everyone enjoyed that. Like, kind of a pleasant enjoyable. Yet, in the in the lower, I think when you're in high school, it's called STE, speech to entertain, which makes so much more sense.

Harvey: 6:14

We didn't even have that category.

Pen: 6:16

Well, well. Anyway.

Harvey: 6:19

Look, I did--I did poetry, and a touch of impromptu, and that's it.

Pen: 6:27

I did so many things.

Harvey: 6:29

And I also was in speech team for, like, two months, and then I left because I had a panic attack at a--at an event.

Pen: 6:36

That's pretty good reason.

Harvey: 6:37

Yeah.

Pen: 6:38

But that, too, to say, like, suicide jokes, very common.

Harvey: 6:41

Yeah.

Pen: 6:42

Jokes in general. Oh, yeah. The distinction in, when we are--oh, it was something with joking about mental health, versus joking about neurodivergence, and, like, the jokes that are--jokes that are made by other people, versus the jokes that we make ourselves.

Harvey: 7:03

Yeah.

Pen: 7:05

Is--is a very important sort of thing. Oh, it was when you said "at the expense of."

Harvey: 7:09

Right.

Pen: 7:09

Versus just sort of about.

Harvey: 7:12

Like, it's--it's sort of the--it's sort of the difference between me--like, in the context of me being gay, it's sort of the difference between calling myself a fruit, and saying, like, "Yeah, and I hate myself, I'm going to hell," you know? Like, those feel very different.

Pen: 7:32

Yes. I--in one of my my small notes--oh, this is like a line and a half. It's 44 words. I checked. That jokes about neurodivergence in mental health can be positive, which is, like, healthy coping mechanisms, negative, which is unhealthy coping mechanisms, and then more neutral, which is when they are, I would say, primarily just observational, but turned, like--you know, humor is the--one of the definitions of it is, like, saying the unexpected, and that sort of thing, and we've talked before about how that makes neurodivergent people sometimes just very funny, naturally, because we have to be so aware of what is and is not expected.

Harvey: 8:15

Yeah. So that makes us really, really good at subverting those expectations, both in substantive and meaningful ways, and also in just being really, really funny.

Pen: 8:24

We're just telling a funny joke. And, like, if I joke about my ADHD, it's going to be something unexpected for neurotypical people, I can guarantee you that. None of y'all understand what my brain is, and we can both just sit in that.

Harvey: 8:38

That's fine. I don't even know if you understand what your brain is.

Pen: 8:41

I understand some parts of my brain, but other parts of it are left to a mystery. That's part of ADHD, is where some of your brain just doesn't make any sense to you, either.

Harvey: 8:50

It's just a big 'ol shrug.

Pen: 8:52

Turns out dopamine sometimes is used for gla--brain glasses, where you can see your brain in it.

Harvey: 9:00

I respect the effort.

Pen: 9:02

Thank you.

Harvey: 9:02

I meant that in a loving way

Pen: 9:04

Oh, no. I know, I know. It was not as good.

Harvey: 9:07

I love you.

Pen: 9:08

Nah, nah, but, like, yeah, there are definitely things I don't understand about my own brain.

Harvey: 9:13

Ah, there are plenty of things I don't understand about my brain.

Pen: 9:17

You don't like when I call it squishy, I know that.

Harvey: 9:19

Uh, no. No, I don't. I mean, the thing is that you are factually correct.

Pen: 9:28

See--see that's not the kind of thing that people are supposed to say, but it's also not funny because Harvey hates it.

Harvey: 9:34

Well, no, I mean, objectively, it is funny to call a brain squishy. I'm just gonna hate it.

Pen: 9:39

Yeah, no, that's fair.

Harvey: 9:41

But there was--there was a joke I made last night over--over text with Pen that we got into a brief discussion about. I call my--I call my antidepressants Don't Kill Yourself Candy.

Pen: 9:56

Made me laugh last night, too.

Harvey: 9:58

Which is legitimately the reason--I mean, my antidepressants are legitimately the reason that I don't want to kill myself anymore. So then I thought, "Hey, you know what would be really funny? If I called them candy."

Pen: 10:08

That's--see, that's the part of it for me. And we did--we did talk about it a bit, on whether that sort of falls under, like, a slightly more negative, or a more neutral. I see it as more neutral, at least in comparison to a lot of jokes that I've come across that have--that have the phrase,"kill yourself." And I'm not just talking about, like, the awful things that people say and claim where, like, "Oh, I was just kidding." And it's like, no, you can't tell someone to kill themselves and it's a joke. That's not how it works.

Harvey: 10:37

I'm going to bite you. I'm going to bite your ankles.

Pen: 10:40

Bite, bite, bite.

Harvey: 10:41

Violence, violence, violence.

Pen: 10:43

Cross-stitch that. But yeah, it's like--calling pills candy is funny, because they're not.

Harvey: 10:57

They're not candy. They taste like garbage.

Pen: 10:59

Oh, they're so bad. If they dissolve in your mouth a little bit, it's, like, the worst.

Harvey: 11:05

Awful, awful.

Pen: 11:06

Yeah, very, very bad. If my lamotrigine dissolves in my mouth, it tastes like a Nintendo Switch cartridge.

Harvey: 11:16

Okay, see? That's funny.

Pen: 11:17

Yeah, that's funny. If I take [Laughter] Hades--Hades--Supergiant's Hades and lamotrigine are both mood stabilizers, and they tastethe same.

Harvey: 11:33

Oh, wow. I mean, yeah. I guess--I guess in that way--I guess in that way, Zoloft is ana--is analogous to Skittles, because Skittles make me not want to kill myself. That's less funny. But, like.

Pen: 11:51

Sorry, I really got myself with that one.

Harvey: 11:53

No, that's a good--that's a good one.

Pen: 11:56

That's an example of a joke that very, very directly has to do with my neurodivergence. Both ways, actually. Because the reason I like Hades so much is because I hyperfixated on it, or vice versa there.

Harvey: 12:09

Yes. I wonder how much of this episode is just going to be us cracking jokes?

Pen: 12:13

I mean, that's still good. We're very, very funny.

Harvey: 12:17

We are, we are.

Pen: 12:19

What were you gonna say?

Harvey: 12:20

No, go ahead.

Pen: 12:22

But you know, that's--like, that is--I am acknowledging in that joke, my neurodivergence, and also the fact that I'm on meds, and I--I kind of like making observational jokes about those sorts of things, because it's something that is kind of--the social view of it is that it's something you're not necessarily supposed to talk about, or that it's shameful, and that's why, sometimes, if I were to make a joke about being on medication, people--I--neurotypical people--sometimes get kind of uncomfortable, like, "Oh--I... oh, okay."

Harvey: 12:57

I like making neurodivergence folks--er--jokes, that make neurodivergent--I like making neurodivergence jokes that make neurotypical people uncomfortable.

Pen: 13:07

It is a small joy in life.

Harvey: 13:10

And also, I like to subvert expectations.

Pen: 13:12

Yeah, that's--and that's the kind of thing is, we live subverting expectations, because we don't get to set the expectations, even though, I swear, they would make more sense if we did.

Harvey: 13:22

It would be easier for neurotypical people, too.

Pen: 13:25

That's what I'm saying! If I ask questions like, "Hey, why do we do it this way?" They're all like, "You know what? I'm not sure." And I'm like, "Then stop!"

Harvey: 13:32

Then just don't, heart.

Pen: 13:33

Heart. But yeah, whereas sometimes we make these jokes and they're nice, because it's a way of saying, "No, I'm not ashamed of this thing. Like, there's nothing you can do or say, that's gonna make me go like, 'Oh, no,' I'm so sorry to mention that I'm on a mood stabilizer in polite company," like, leave me alone.

Harvey: 13:54

Like, I'm so sorry that I take medicine so that I don't kill myself. Like...

Pen: 13:58

Like, I take a medicine and my brain goes, "Oh, all right, we can chill out a little bit more. Doesn't that sound nice?" And I'm like, "Yeah, that does sound nice!"

Harvey: 14:06

It's like, my brain's like, "Serotonin moment."

Pen: 14:12

Yeah, I take Adderall.

Harvey: 14:15

You're on Speed!

Pen: 14:16

I'm on Speed, a little bit.

Harvey: 14:17

Just a little bit of Speed.

Pen: 14:19

On partial Speed.

Harvey: 14:20

As a treat.

Pen: 14:21

As a treat.

Harvey: 14:21

I hand it to you, and I go "Pspspspspspsps."

Pen: 14:27

Yeah, I take a little bit of Speed, and it makes my brain go, "Oh, I get it now. Oh, so we just do things? They were right all along. Why don't you just do it?" And I'm like...

Harvey: 14:40

And then you wake up the next morning, and they're like,"No! No!"

Pen: 14:45

It's 24 hours out of my system.

Harvey: 14:47

Um, but, I mean, that is very different from the way that I used to joke, because a majority of my humor, when I was, like. 16 and 17, nd some of that was was influenced by the people that I was around. Because, in high school--this was also--because I was in high school in 2017 and 2018.

Pen: 15:06

Ah, high school.

Harvey: 15:08

And we--there were-- a lot of folk joked around about,"Oh, I want to kill myself" like any time they were mildly inconvenienced. And then it ended up being something that I internalized, and I didn't realize until years later that it was actually true. That I was lightheartedly joking about the fact that I wanted to kill myself.

Pen: 15:27

Oh, I have--do you mind if I bring up a quote or two from that speech?

Harvey: 15:34

Sure.

Pen: 15:35

Because there is actually something that is very, very, very directly related to that. Let's see. Ah, okay. So one of the points that was part of it is normalizing the experience, essentially, of being suicidal, or making jokes about it.

Harvey: 15:53

Yeah.

Pen: 15:56

Let's see... the, like, source citation was about"That's what she said" jokes, and how that genuinely contributes to a cycle that quote, "Reinscribes rape culture by normalizing discourses that dismiss and silence rape victims." It's an article from Communication and Critical Flesh Cultural Studies Journal."Normalization of negative experiences through humor isn't exclusive to sexual misconduct. Imagine that you're feeling awful, you hear 'I hate myself,' and can't imagine anything more true, and yet you have no idea how to broach the subject. So you laugh. You joke, even though you just said, 'This makes me want to kill myself,' and meant it. Here's the thing that makes it really awful: other people are laughing, too. Suicidal thoughts aren't healthy. They're not a joke. But what they do become with their increasing reference in social media culture is normalized.

Harvey: 16:45

Yeah, that is--that is very succinct, and a very good way of describing it.

Pen: 16:52

Thank you. I took this to competitions, so my coaches made it that way.

Harvey: 16:57

Fair enough.

Pen: 16:59

But yeah, that is part of the thing is, when it becomes a normalized experience, then it stops having it stops being recognized as something that could be harmful. And also, I think, like, one of the things that was very important to me in writing this and performing it, is like, how it kind of removes or negates possible healthy coping mechanisms, because it's such a common thing like, oh, yeah, I'm just gonna make this joke about hating myself for being suicidal, and people are gonna laugh and then I'm not gonna learn any healthy coping mechanisms, because I've gotten positive feedback from this unhealthy one.

Harvey: 17:37

That's operant conditioning, baby!

Pen: 17:40

Harvey psych major moment.

Harvey: 17:42

Yeah.

Pen: 17:43

Which is good. Excellent.

Harvey: 17:45

I'm just a little--I'm just a little creature.

Pen: 17:47

That's it.

Harvey: 17:48

I cannot change this.

Pen: 17:51

There's some other things that sort of, up on here. One of them was about sort of the brain pathways thing, you know? Where you think something enough and it just--your brain follows that path.

Harvey: 18:02

Yeah, that's just how neuroplasticity works. Neuroplasticity is the brain's ability to create paths in the brain, like Pen was saying, with neural firing. As--as one brain cell fires off, it learns that there is a connection between two different brain cells firing off, and so it creates a chain.

Pen: 18:22

Excellent. I'm happy for them. I'm proud of them.

Harvey: 18:25

Only when it's, like, a good chain.

Pen: 18:27

Well, I'm very proud of them for how hard they work.

Harvey: 18:29

Yes.

Pen: 18:30

They're doing their best.

Harvey: 18:31

They're just following instructions.

Pen: 18:33

And they're doing so good.

Harvey: 18:34

They are! Sometimes that works against us.

Pen: 18:39

Here's an example of that. This speech is becoming convenient. The last edit was made on February 16th, 2019, and it's becoming convenient over two years later.

Harvey: 18:49

How about that?

Pen: 18:49

It's weird. Big shoutout to Jess and Matt, who were great coaches.

Harvey: 18:56

Yeah!

Pen: 18:56

Thanks, guys. They wrote some of these jokes.

Harvey: 18:59

Love it.

Pen: 19:00

"In 1994 study from the Journal of Basic and Applied Social Psychology," and yeah, it's old, but like...

Harvey: 19:07

Sometimes those classical studies are relevant.

Pen: 19:10

"The study asked participants to read disparaging jokes about lawyers to test--to see if choosing to make the jokes would lead to less favorable attitudes towards lawyers. And it did. It's not because lawyers are soulless monsters. The effect of cognitive dissonance separated the participants from the reality of the statements. Joking about wanting to kill yourself isn't the same as saying lawyers are terrible, but the effect of dissonance still applies, creating an audience quicker to dismiss these warning signs than congress is on sexual assault charges."

Harvey: 19:40

Boof.

Pen: 19:40

Yeah, that joke, I don't remember which one--which one of the three of us wrote it, but it sure was 2019.

Harvey: 19:50

Golly gee, that was even before Kavanaugh.

Pen: 19:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But all of that--all of that said, humor does still have positive impacts on mental health treatment? I actually did have a study on that as well.

Harvey: 20:05

Oho!

Pen: 20:05

Yeah! 2009 article, Journal of Evidence-Based, Complimentary, and Alternative medicine. Complimentary is the more functional one there, but this is not the episode where I'm talking about that. Anyway.

Harvey: 20:19

Anyway.

Pen: 20:21

Observations were done on an open group in which psychiatric patients were encouraged to participate in humor based activities, you know, calls for jokes, and an activity in which group members replayed a funny occurrence. Another section offered group members a chance to directly addressed the destructive potential that humor can carry. The patients who attended that felt it was an opportunity for connection, as well as improved communication and social skills. So both of them together is what made it work. The one where it was just legitimately about humor, and, like, having that positive, and then also directly addressing it. And not only did that help them individually feel better, it also strengthened their connection and community, which I think is an impact. Like, that is a piece of using humor, particularly, like, it does help neurodivergent people and mentally ill people relate to each other. When we make these jokes, and we're both laughing, and it's like, oh, you get it.

Harvey: 21:17

Yeah.

Pen: 21:18

You understand what it's like!

Harvey: 21:19

It's like, you understand how this feels? Oh, I can let my guard down.

Pen: 21:22

Yeah. And the unfortunate thing that sometimes happens is when there's just that common thread of things, like jokes about killing yourself, or drinking bleach, which was the thing at the time that we were writing that, so that was--that was a part of it.

Harvey: 21:38

Something that our--one of our--something that one of our roommates liked to joke about at the time.

Pen: 21:44

Yeah. And that was--like, that is--there is community that people find in making those jokes because, legitimately, they're coming across people who understand what it's like to feel that awful.

Harvey: 21:57

Right.

Pen: 21:58

Nothing positive is necessarily coming out of that joke, though.

Harvey: 22:02

No, and--and the positivity that comes from community only goes so far. It really kind of depends on, like, the purpose for which that community was created, and also their values, because, like--okay, I'm going to go for

an extreme example: 22:17

neonazis. They bond over their hatred of BIPOC and Jewish people. They sure as heck bond over that, but I also want to kick their teeth in. They're not doing anything good.

Pen: 22:33

BIPOC being Black-identified people of color, yes?

Harvey: 22:37

Black and Indigenous, People of Color.

Pen: 22:38

Black and Indigenous--okay, that's--see, now I'm glad I asked, because now I know that, too, but...

Harvey: 22:43

Yeah, Black and Indigenous, People of Color.

Pen: 22:45

Got it. Yes. What was I thinking? Actually, yeah, I do have thoughts on that kind of thing, and, like, where there is positivity and not in communities that are based on a negative. And this was something that I thought about when I was taking that intercultural communication class 1000 years ago. It was an evening class that met once a week for three hours.

Harvey: 23:10

Oh, right.

Pen: 23:10

So it's amazing that I had any thoughts left in my head afterwards.

Harvey: 23:14

Head empty.

Pen: 23:15

Head empty disease. Disease where you are alive. No thoughts.

Harvey: 23:28

Alexa, play "Help, I'm Alive" by Metric. Anyway.

Pen: 23:33

So yeah, yeah, groups that are based on negativity, or the desire for something to no longer exist, like neonazis. The bond is not a strong I--I sort of--I see, and I observe and think, in those, because it is based on either a lack of something, or an inherently negative thing

Harvey: 23:57

Right.

Pen: 23:58

There is not really a positive, something, being formed there, and if there is positivity being formed, then it's likely more from, like, being around people who share your values. And maybe you find other things that you're bonding over, but even that, like, sharing of values, like, it's not so much a value, as something you dislike.

Harvey: 24:19

Yeah.

Pen: 24:19

So, it's, like, at best, shaky ground in what you're able to positively bond over in--in those communities, which means they're not actually doing anything for you.

Harvey: 24:29

No.

Pen: 24:30

They are negatively influencing your brain, which, like, neonazis don't need sympathy on any basis. Like...

Harvey: 24:40

No.

Pen: 24:42

If you hate Jewish people, that's it. No, bad job. You did a bad job.

Harvey: 24:47

Bite, bite, violence.

Pen: 24:49

But it's also not helping anybody, much less you,

Harvey: 24:53

And I do want to be very clear, mentally ill people who joke about killing themselves are not as bad as neonazis.

Pen: 24:58

No, no, no. It is--that would be a false equivalency.

Harvey: 25:02

It was just a useful analogy.

Pen: 25:04

Yes. And in these--in the circles where the main part of the bonding that mentally ill people are finding is other people who also are feeling suicidal, like, there's not necessarily a positive coping mechanism that's being formed. Like, if you're all reinforcing your suicidal thoughts in each other, it's actually making it worse for all of you.

Harvey: 25:27

And I'll tell you what, I would like to think that--well, with--with our core friend group, the four of us now, being all of us being mentally ill, I think, and at least three of the four of us being neurodivergent, if not all of us, I found that I--that, like, the community that we have, and the bond that we have, with the goal of healing, is much stronger than anything I ever had with anybody in high school who joked about killing themselves all the time, and how depressed they were.

Pen: 26:05

There's no stability to be found there.

Harvey: 26:07

No.

Pen: 26:07

There's no--

Harvey: 26:09

There's no support.

Pen: 26:10

Yeah. It's hard to find support when, like--those jokes are made, because you need support.

Harvey: 26:16

Yeah, because you need help.

Pen: 26:18

Yes. Which is, and we talked about this in the episode on being suicidal. that's not something to make a judgment call over, and that's not something to dismiss, like, if someone's joking about suicide, it means that there is a problem. I would hope that is obvious. The way to solve that problem is not to shame people, but it's also not to reinforce those thoughts. Which can be really, really difficult to deal with individually, especially when you are a teenager, and everything is hard. And I mean that genuinely, like, it is very hard to be a teenager. Your brain? Oh, no.

Harvey: 26:53

It's hard, and nobody understands.

Pen: 26:55

Nobody understands. It's hard growing up, it's hard, and no one understands.

Harvey: 27:01

Homestuck.

Pen: 27:04

But legitimately, your brain is working so hard. And it's so not--it's not done learning how to be a brain.

Harvey: 27:12

It's still baking.

Pen: 27:13

But you're under so much stress constantly, all the time.

Harvey: 27:16

And it's only getting worse as time goes on. We keep--and I've mentioned this in--in episodes before--that we are putting more and more pressure on our youth. And that's making it--and that is leading to genuine--like, yes, some of the reason that we are seeing higher rates of mental illness in youth is because we are becoming more aware of what that can look like. It's also because we are putting a tremendous amount of pressure on our youth to perform, to be perfect children, and so on.

Pen: 27:51

And there is--like, there are some distinctions. We are legitimately getting better at recognizing what depression and anxiety can look like, and how that's not just the one way that we kind of assume.

Harvey: 28:00

Right.

Pen: 28:01

We're also getting better at understanding what things like ADHD and autism can look like. Increases in those diagnoses are because we're getting better at understanding what it looks like, and also because they're being put more to the forefront of being recognized as society gets bigger, and louder, and harder to exist in for people like us.

Harvey: 28:22

ADHD and autism are things that you are born with.

Pen: 28:24

Yes. And they're not things that have just come to be now. Like, we're getting better at seeing them, and they also are being put up more because--or, recognized more, because, like, everything's louder now than it was 200 years ago.

Harvey: 28:40

Yeah.

Pen: 28:42

So an ADHD person then is gonna feel, I think, a little bit less overwhelmed on a day-to-day basis than I am.

Harvey: 28:49

Yeah. And, you know, keep in mind when we--when we talk about diagnosis and taxonomies, a major part of determining what does get considered a mental illness or neurodivergence is based on whether or not it produces deviant behavior or cognition. And because our society keeps changing, that changes how those taxonomies are considered. That changes what's included in those taxonomies. That changes what taxonomies exist. And you'll find that--that certain things like--for example, psychosomatic symptoms. That is a legitimate disorder in--at least in the United States--which is essentially physical illness from something that doesn't seem to have a physical basis. Physical illness from a psychological basis.

Pen: 29:42

Or just pain.

Harvey: 29:43

Yeah, or just pain. In South American countries, though, in Spanish-speaking countries, especially with grief, it is actually quite normal to experience signs of physical distress, or it's considered very normal to consider--to experience physiological distress based on a psychological stressor. So in--

Pen: 30:06

So it's not considered a mental illness or... okay.

Harvey: 30:11

Correct. So in Chile, if somebody felt really sick, because they are under a ton of stress, that's not considered unusual, that's considered part of the stress response. Whereas if that goes too far in the United States, then we give somebody another disorder. And I don't think that diagnosis is a bad thing. I'm not going to get too off track here. I don't think diagnosis is inherently a bad thing. I think it's really useful. But I think it makes an interesting point about how these things vary. And tying that back into jokes, it--you know, that changes, what kind of jokes are going to be funny, frankly.

Pen: 30:48

It also changes the necessity of coping.

Harvey: 30:50

Yeah.

Pen: 30:50

If something is just considered normal, and isn't going to be pointed out as particularly deviant, and therefore something that needs special addressing, there doesn't have to be a coping mechanism figured out for it, because it's already part of expected social behaviors, which means that there's probably already a form of social support. Like, if you are experiencing psychosomatic illness or pain as a result of grief, and that's considered normal, presumably, there are already things in place for helping to support you in that because it's considered normal that you're going to experience it. But when we consider it so deviant, like, you have to turn to something else. You have to kind of figure it out.

Harvey: 31:33

Yeah, there's--the people who are going to be there for you are the people who get it already. Which, for a lot of folks, that support system is not in place.

Pen: 31:42

Exactly. And there can be humor that comes from things that are already considered like normal or typical.

Harvey: 31:50

Of course.

Pen: 31:50

But a lot of, you know, coping with mental health and neurodivergence, if it comes down to humor, a fair bit of it is because we are having to figure out how to deal with it.

Harvey: 32:00

And sometimes, I know, for me, a lot of why I turned to humor and continues to turn to humor. Humor is genuinely one of the main ways that I cope, and I like to think that I have a healthier relationship with it now than I used to, but...

Pen: 32:15

Not that I knew you when you were in high school.

Harvey: 32:17

But you knew me when I was 18.

Pen: 32:19

Yes.

Harvey: 32:19

And I was a very different person three years ago.

Pen: 32:23

Three years.

Harvey: 32:24

Sorry.

Pen: 32:24

No, it's okay, you can keep talking.

Harvey: 32:27

So you know, all of that to say, like, part of why I cope through humor is because genuinely, you know, I'm not ashamed to be mentally ill, I'm not ashamed to be neurodivergent. The crushing weight of living in the world, and the crushing weight of knowing that I'm being judged and misunderstood every single day of my life, means that I really just don't have the mental capacity to beat down on myself further. So, you know what? Yeah, why not joke about the fact that I don't kill myself because I'm on meds? And why not joke about the fact that I will literally never understand sarcasm in my life, because I'm autistic? Why not reclaim the R-slur? Like, life's too short, I've been beaten down entirely too much.

Pen: 33:13

Exactly. Yeah, I think that that's very powerful, and that's real. And I think there's also, like, when it comes to humor as a positive coping mechanism, people laughing at a joke you made is a very positive kind of feedback, and a very positive form of reinforcement. And, like, you do get some of that reinforcement when you're joking about negative things like being suicidal, or hating yourself, but it doesn't--it still doesn't feel good. Like, it's still coming from a negative source. And so in my experience, like, when I would joke about those negative things, and, like, people would laugh, or I'd get some kind of positive response is very, very different than when it feels like now when I joke about my ADHD, or say things like "Hades and lamotrigine are both mood stabilizers" because, like, I don't feel bad about any of that. None of that is coming from a place of pain for me.

Harvey: 34:05

Yeah, and it's a similar thing where, like, you know, when I was a teenager, like,"God, we had to stay later for theatre, I want to kill myself," versus Don't Kill Yourself Candy. They're both the same topic, but, like, one feels very different.

Pen: 34:21

Yeah, like, I think the source of them matters a lot, as well as the context.

Harvey: 34:25

Because like, I'm joking about the fact that, like, "Hey, look at that! I'm doing better! Ha, look at the reason I'm doing better."

Pen: 34:32

Let's call it candy even though it's not. Haha, silly!

Harvey: 34:35

Haha, funny. Joke.

Pen: 34:38

Joke. So I think there is that, like, the context I think impacts...

Harvey: 34:45

Sorry, I started laughing because--like, under my breath, because I--I've also made jokes before about what I take my antidepressants with.

Pen: 34:55

Oh, is it the--things in your dinner that just makes sense?

Harvey: 34:58

Oh, that's a good one, but no.

Pen: 35:00

It's a good one, I like it a lot.

Harvey: 35:01

So I once--we could probably include the audio from this one, but there was--there was a TikTok I--I recorded once where I--okay, so several months back, probably six months ago at

Pen: 35:12

Also, like, your expression, and how calmly you this poin, I developed this, like, massive, just, mass on my neck, which turned out to be, like, a cyst, that went away wit antibiotics. But I got put n these just gigantic horse pill. And because they were so bi, I had to take them a food. So recorded a TikTok that said, Things in my dinner tonight that

just makes sense: 35:38

three ibuprofen and amoxicillin." An it also--it cut off before I finished "amoxicillin," whic is part of why it's fu said all of it, and, like, tucked a hair behind your ear.

Harvey: 35:52

Yes.

Pen: 35:52

It was really good.

Harvey: 35:54

I'm gonna--I'm gonna have to--we're gonna have to include the audio. But yeah, I mean, like, so, no, not that joke, but I've also made jokes about, like, some--just some really awful things that I've--I've used to take my antidepressants. Redbull is up there.

Pen: 36:10

When did you drink Red Bull?

Harvey: 36:12

I drink Red Bull sometimes.

Pen: 36:13

You drink Red Bull sometimes?

Harvey: 36:15

Very, very rarely. It's usually...

Pen: 36:17

What does it taste like?

Harvey: 36:18

Not good. Um, like, kind of, okay, I was about to compare it to piss, but I've also never--I've never put piss in my mouth, which is for the best. I'm gonna say it's kind of like, if you let, like, a good handful of pennies sit in apple juice for a little while.

Pen: 36:40

Sorry for==I've never had Red Bull, even when I had energy drinks a lot, I never went for Red Bull, so I've always been kind of curious to what it tastes like, but not curious enough to open a can of Red Bull.

Harvey: 36:51

You ever had Monster?

Pen: 36:53

Yeah.

Harvey: 36:53

It's a lot like Monster, but without the gross aftertaste.

Pen: 36:57

I could never--Monster just tasted like sugar to me.

Harvey: 37:01

Sugar and chemicals.

Pen: 37:02

Like dissolved Pixie Sticks that were also fizzy, and I hate that.

Harvey: 37:06

That's mean to Pixie Sticks.

Pen: 37:08

Well, Pixie Sticks are kind of boring on their own. Like, the flavor's barely there.

Harvey: 37:12

That's not true!

Pen: 37:14

I never found it to be much flavor.

Harvey: 37:16

That's--that's fair.

Pen: 37:16

But anyway, I that's why I always had Monster Rehab, because you know what that tastes like? Iced tea, and also something else that's a little bad, but that's the energy.

Harvey: 37:25

And 2% milk, also, is something that I've used to take my antidepressants.

Pen: 37:29

I thought you meant that Monster tasted like 2% milk also, and I was like, where?!

Harvey: 37:35

No.

Pen: 37:36

Where is the milk?

Harvey: 37:37

No, the difference is that--well, one, I'm white, so I drink milk sometimes because I'm brain dead. But number two, no, the difference between Monster Energy Drink and 2% milk is that I will drink 2% milk. Put Monster--put Monster in front of me...

Pen: 37:56

You shouldn't drink either one of them.

Harvey: 38:00

Listen, okay? I got nothing. No, you're right. You're absolutely right.

Pen: 38:05

You're lacked--you're lack toast--

Harvey: 38:06

Lack toes in toddler ants.

Pen: 38:08

Toast! None of it! No! No milk.

Harvey: 38:13

I'm gonna keep drinking milk.

Pen: 38:14

I know you're gonna keep drinking milk.

Harvey: 38:16

Anyway.

Pen: 38:18

But yeah, jokes like that. All of that was joking about what you take your antidepressants with.

Harvey: 38:25

It's--you know what it is?

Pen: 38:26

Tell me.

Harvey: 38:27

It's about making--rather than keeping my mental illness as something deviant, it's about making it mundane.

Pen: 38:35

Yeah! Yes, yes, yes. Normalizing it feels so good, because it is this aspect of ourselves that we are expected to, like, keep down and, like, removing the shame from things feels so nice.

Harvey: 38:48

Yeah, and it's moving the jokes away from "Haha, I'm depressed," to, "Hey, want to hear what I took my Zoloft with tonight?"

Pen: 38:57

And that's funny. That's funny, folks. That's all there is to it.

Harvey: 39:02

We are approaching the 40 minute mark. So, Pen, do you have any closing thoughts about jokes and mental illness?

Pen: 39:16

I know that we--sort of, our conversation was a bit winding in this one. We talked about a lot of different things. So I think, in the end, it was more about like coping generally, and humor as a part of that.

Harvey: 39:28

Yeah. I think we're tying it back in.

Pen: 39:33

Yeah, yeah. And I think that what it kind of comes down to is, when you have a mental illness, and/or are neurodivergent, it is difficult to find the healthy ways to cope, especially when you are younger or when it's sort of the beginning of it.

Harvey: 39:51

Or if you don't have any support system.

Pen: 39:52

Yes. And trying to find that sometimes leads to humor as a negative coping mechanism. And also, finding ways for humor to be a positive coping mechanism, not only is that just, like, objectively better...

Harvey: 40:08

Yeah.

Pen: 40:09

...because it's--it's, you know, healthy.

Harvey: 40:10

Healthy coping skills are better than [stammering] unhealthy coping skills.

Pen: 40:15

Thank you for coming to our TED Talk. This whole podcast has been leading up to, um...

Harvey: 40:20

We would have been kicked off the stage a while ago.

Pen: 40:23

Oh, they can try and move me. They can try. I-I can make it more embarrassing for them than for me, guarantee. That is inadvertently a joke about my mental illnesses and neurodivergences. Yep! Anyway, finding those positive things. Not only is it just nicer, it's also a way to build better community, and something that's more fulfilling, and that can reduce shame, that is based in in mental health and neurodivergence. And that's nice, just normalizing it, and getting to talk about it, also without it feeling super heavy.

Harvey: 41:03

Yeah.

Pen: 41:03

Like, this is lighthearted. We're just making little jokes.

Harvey: 41:06

We're just making little jokes about how sometimes I take my antidepressants with milk.

Pen: 41:12

Oh, and we never actually got around to, if you're not mentally ill or neurodivergent, don't make jokes about it.

Harvey: 41:18

Yeah, don't.

Pen: 41:19

I did have this one--the littler bullet point, which is,"I am not your punchline, and neither is my brain."

Harvey: 41:27

Nope.

Pen: 41:28

When I make jokes about my neurodivergence, I am not the punch line. My brain is not the punch line. My ADHD is not the punch line. How weird my life sometimes seems to people from the outside is occasionally the punch line, or the things that my ADHD makes me do. I am not a punch line.

Harvey: 41:47

Yeah, like, I'll make jokes all day about being super oblivious to flirting because I'm autistic, despite having three boyfriends. If--if a neurodivergent person, or even allistic person who wasn't divergent made that joke, I wouldn't jive with it.

Pen: 42:02

No, because, like, you making your own observational humor is very different.

Harvey: 42:07

Kind of like how I can call myself a retard, but I would not be cool with it if an allistic person did that.

Pen: 42:13

Yeah, no, that would not be... uh-uh.

Harvey: 42:17

Yeah. So I think there is, also, that element of reclamation, in reclaiming what has been used against you, and just being like, no, this is mine. I'm making it funny.

Pen: 42:28

I think, also, sometimes, like, reclaiming things that we have used against ourselves.

Harvey: 42:34

That, too.

Pen: 42:35

I can joke about how I have absolutely debilitating social anxiety now, and it doesn't include phrases like I hate myself or I want to die. It includes phrases--includes phrases like "I would just love to walk into a grocery store and feel fine, and not think about--" I--if I didn't have to come up with a little script, for what, like, generic, but still pleasant, thing to say to a cashier, that would be--that sounds so soothing. That's my bath bomb.

Harvey: 43:08

That is your--that is your self care in the wild, lions wearing face masks.

Pen: 43:12

Yeah! Walk into a Lush and it's just, like, feeling calm when someone asks you about the weather on the street. And I'm like, "Oh, I want more. Give it to me."

Harvey: 43:25

Hand it over.

Pen: 43:26

Yes. Yeah. Do you have--did I ask if you have closing thoughts? Or did you just sort of...

Harvey: 43:32

You didn't, but...

Pen: 43:33

Do you have clothe thought?

Harvey: 43:35

Haaa. I'm sorry. That was nothing.

Pen: 43:41

Neither was mine.

Harvey: 43:42

Do I have closing thoughts? Um, I'm funny.

Pen: 43:47

God, God, you're funny.

Harvey: 43:48

Pen's also really funny.

Pen: 43:50

Oh, thank you!

Harvey: 43:51

Yeah!

Pen: 43:52

You know what a gift it is whenever you laugh at one of my jokes? Because, genuinely, I am not joking, I have said this so many times, and on this podcast, too: you're the funniest person I've ever met in my entire life.

Harvey: 44:04

Which is still hard to believe, but, like, you are not the first person who has said that to me.

Pen: 44:08

You're really--

Harvey: 44:08

I'm apparently just really funny.

Pen: 44:10

If you are neurodivergent, one, your brain is so big.

Harvey: 44:14

I'm also gay. I'm also trans.

Pen: 44:17

Like, what do you want?

Harvey: 44:18

Like, I'm the funniest person alive. That's not true. I guarantee you, there's someone out there who is funnier than me, but...

Pen: 44:26

Maybe there's someone out there who has a bigger platform than you, and so more people recognize that they're funny, but like you might be.

Harvey: 44:34

You know, I've thought about doing stand up.

Pen: 44:36

I think that would be so great. I would love that so much.

Harvey: 44:40

All right. Well, stick around for just a few more moments. We'll tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is run, and our Patreon.

Pen: 44:48

Wahoo!

Harvey: 44:48

Wahoo!

Pen: 44:50

Yay!

Harvey: 44:52

Beyond Introspection is an independently-run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at ByndPodcast or you can email us at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com. That's beyond d-o-t podcast, no spaces. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description.

Pen: 45:17

We also have a Patreon. You can find us at patreon.com/beyondintrospection. That's all one word. We also have links to it on our site and on our social media. Our podcast is entirely independent, so we pay for hosting fees and transcript service subscriptions out of pocket. This is a passion project that we're really happy to do, and any support you're able to give us would really make a difference. On our

Patreon there are four tiers: 45:37

$2, which gives you access to test audio and other bloopers;$5 which will give you access to bonus episodes that will make in the future, on topics like how angry we are Freud, our frustrations with our respective fields of studies and even guest episodes; $10 will get you a direct line and priority access to request episode topics and new bonus content; and $15, which will give you access to monthly AMAs--that's ask me anything for those who don't know--where we can answer questions ranging from the podcast process and we figure out what to record, more in depth questions about our neurodivergences, and more. All of those tiers will include benefits from lower tiers of course. And also just to note, unlike our regular episodes, Patreon bonus content is likely to include swearing, so if that's not your vibe, please know that ahead of time. We'd also love it if you're able to share this podcast with people you know. Our only advertising is word of mouth and we want to reach as many people as possible.

Harvey: 46:33

Got feedback for us? Want to request an episode topic? Just feel like saying hello? Feel free to reach out on social media, or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.