Harvey leads a discussion with Pen on autism, including core parts of what autism is, how autistic people interact with the world, and how the world chooses to interact with autistic folks.
Featuring: The Wahoo! Moment of the Week; Links between autism (mis)diagnosis & race; Breaking News: Autistic People Should Lead The Discussion On Autism! Ableist Neurotypicals Are Shocked; Our controversial stance on treating autistic children with kindness and support; Autistic, Trans, & Can't Have Dairy; Wishing Autism Speaks a very Go Away; A very big thank you to Heather!
Referenced/Related Links from this episode:
NOTE: The following links are from Autism Speaks. Do not take these sources at face value. Content warning for general ableism, child death. These links are included so that listeners can get a sense of the kind of rhetoric Autism Speaks uses.
Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
USA Suicide Prevention:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
Internation Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines
Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/
Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:
https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte
Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:
https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/
https://stopaapihate.org/
Resources for US Immigrants:
https://www.informedimmigrant.com/
Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:
Harvey leads a discussion with Pen on autism, including core parts of what autism is, how autistic people interact with the world, and how the world chooses to interact with autistic folks.
Featuring: The Wahoo! Moment of the Week; Links between autism (mis)diagnosis & race; Breaking News: Autistic People Should Lead The Discussion On Autism! Ableist Neurotypicals Are Shocked; Our controversial stance on treating autistic children with kindness and support; Autistic, Trans, & Can't Have Dairy; Wishing Autism Speaks a very Go Away; A very big thank you to Heather!
Referenced/Related Links from this episode:
NOTE: The following links are from Autism Speaks. Do not take these sources at face value. Content warning for general ableism, child death. These links are included so that listeners can get a sense of the kind of rhetoric Autism Speaks uses.
Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
USA Suicide Prevention:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
Internation Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines
Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/
Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:
https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte
Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:
https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/
https://stopaapihate.org/
Resources for US Immigrants:
https://www.informedimmigrant.com/
Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:
Welcome to Beyond Introspection: a podcast where we talk about mental health, neurodivergence, and how it impacts literally every aspect of our lives.
Harvey:[Distantly] All of them!
Pen:I'm Pen.
Harvey:And I'm Harvey.
Pen:And this episode, we're going to be talking about autism. It's gonna be led by Harvey, like how the last episode was led by me. And this one, we're sorry it's coming out a little bit late. We're rerecording the entire thing.
Harvey:This is actually the second time that we've sat down to do this episode.
Pen:Yeah, we had some audio issues. And in trying to edit it, I gave myself a sensory meltdown because it was so bad.
Harvey:And that is not the goal of our podcast. So we thought, you know what?
Pen:A little bit antithetical to that.
Harvey:I would say more than a little bit antithetical.
Pen:A lot a bit antithetical.
Harvey:I will say, the reason why Pen was giggling at the beginning is when I said, "all of them," you might have been able to guess, I fully turned my head away from the microphone.
Pen:Yeah. Like, the echo in the kitchen behind you was pretty impressive.
Harvey:It was pretty good. So hopefully that turns out good.
Pen:I think it-- I think it will.
Harvey:Epic. So, before we get started with a conversation about autism, Pen...
Pen:Harvey.
Harvey:How well do you remember this past week?
Pen:I mean, I don't remember--as soon as you prompt me to try and remember a period of time, it's completely erased, but I did actually already have something prepped for this.
Harvey:Great. So we're introducing a new segment into this podcast called the Wahoo- er, sorry, the [excitedly] Wahoo! Moment of the Week.
Pen:Yay!
Harvey:Pen was gonna call me on and if I didn't say it.
Pen:I wasn't going to call you on it. I was going to request it.
Harvey:Same difference. Anyway, so basically, we're just going to take a little bit of time at the beginning of each episode to talk about something nice that happened to us this week.
Pen:Something that made us go,"wahoo!"
Harvey:Wahoo!
Pen:Because, well, you know, nice things are cool and good, and we are stressed out, neurodivergent people. Focusing on nice things is very good for us, or so my therapist tells me, and I already knew, but I thought that was a funny joke. Anyway, I've been watching a show, because my little brother likes it.
Harvey:As well as my boyfriend.
Pen:Yeah, I remember learning that. I was like, "Oh, okay, that's cool." But yeah, I promised him I would watch it, and then took way too long to actually get around to it. I blame several things, including ADHD. Really hard to get into new media. It's called Hilda, it's on Netflix, and it's really really, really good. I've been--
Harvey:It's British, right?
Pen:It's--it's Canadian, actually. I think American-Canadian. It's extremely good, and I'm very into it. And I've been doing my, like--my thing where anything I enjoy, I immediately just go into, like, meta analysis. I've been like gushing over--like the writing is really good, absolutely love the art style, so it's been really great to watch this and, you know, do something that I know will make my little brother happy, because I love him very, very much. But also to discover a show that, like, excites me.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:What's your Wahoo! Moment of the Week, Harvey?
Harvey:Yeah, I feel bad because I did this last episode, too, where I wasn't entirely sure. Because frankly, I mean, I'm gonna be honest, this week has been kind of the opposite of wahoo.
Pen:Oh, no.
Harvey:An "oowah," if you will.
Pen:I will.
Harvey:Yeah, I've been really stressed out. I'm trying to think of something good that has happened. Um, the place that I'm trying to get top surgery at called me and is--they're--they're willing to set up a consultation with me, the only caveat being that I need to get two letters of readiness, because the American health system is garbage. Like I've been wanting to get top surgery for five years, and you need a letter saying that I understand the ramifications? Okay.
Pen:Yeah, the health care system along with being inherently ablest is so much inherently transphobic.
Harvey:Yeah, so that's--that's cool. But, um, I would say--I would say that is my Wahoo Moment of the Week.
Pen:It is pretty cash money that you're finally gonna be able to start on that process.
Harvey:Titty chop.
Pen:Yes, thank you, Harvey.
Harvey:Are we gonna--are we--is that--
Pen:I don't--I--you know what? I'm just gonna leave it there. I don't think there's any way to--I'm not gonna bleep out--it would be way worse, I think.
Harvey:That's fair. Oh, dear, I'm getting way too lax with this. All right.
Pen:Ah, it's fine. [Pen and Harvey groan at each other] Anyway.
Harvey:Anyway, we're both neurodivergent. So, yeah, we're gonna talk about autism. And much like Pen led a discussion on ADHD, because they have ADHD and I don't, we're gonna talk about autism. I'm gonna lead that discussion because I probably have autism, and you most certainly do not.
Pen:I do not have autism, no.
Harvey:So, something that I want to preface this with is that, like, I don't actually have a formal diagnosis, and there's a couple of reasons for that. Some of that is, depending on which clinician I talk to, they really go back and forth on whether I'm autistic or whether I'm not, which is not very swag, but--
Pen:No, it's not cash money of them to be playing into stereotypes and biases.
Harvey:No, and we'll get into some of those. But yeah, it's--it's complicated.
Pen:Relationship status with autism: It's complicated.
Harvey:Yeah, on Facebook. Geez. Um, the other reason is that I--because of how everything in society works, if you do have autism, sometimes that can make it harder to find jobs because of ableism and employment discrimination.
Pen:Or adopt, or do things, like living.
Harvey:Yeah, and, frankly, like, yeah, it would probably be useful for me to be diagnosed in some ways. In other ways, it's better that I'm not, so I'm just going to keep on doing that. Just assuming that I have autism and never seeking the diagnosis for practical reasons.
Pen:Gonna dismantle society, board by board, brick by brick, podcast by podcast.
Harvey:I'm gonna bite.
Pen:[Pen laughs] So tell me about autism, Harvey.
Harvey:Sure! Can do. So I think I want to open this discussion with a conversation about autism and race. I'm not gonna make you do this again, because the last time we recorded, I asked them, like, "Hey, what do you think of when you think of an autistic person?" But I think I will encourage you, the listeners, to take a moment to just think about what you think you see. And, you know, I'm just gonna keep talking, but think about it. And most of the time, when I ask people that question, they think of, like, a young white kid, probably middle class, probably a boy. So you know, a smattering of all these things. But, you know, this goes without saying, autism is not just a white people thing. Unfortunately, the narratives constructed around it and what we think is Autism is very white. That intersection is an issue. So I did want to just start this with a very explicit discussion about autism and, you know, marginalized racial identities. So--so just in general, Hispanic and Black children are significantly less likely to be diagnosed with autism than are white children. And--and I should say, also, I'm going to be talking about children through a lot of this because--there's two reasons. One, because I'm primarily interested in child and adolescent psych, so most of my base knowledge and the way that I talk about psych is centered around kids. And also, the wealth of knowledge that we have about autism is about children. There's not a whole lot about autistic adults. So...
Pen:Yeah, that's--that is, uh, a not uncommon thread in research about neurodivergence, I think, particularly, like, autism and ADHD, where it's like, oh, this is for children.
Harvey:Yeah. And it's--it's not.
Pen:No.
Harvey:Many people don't get diagnosed with ADHD or autism until they are adults, such as in your case, where you weren't diagnosed until you were, what, 20?
Pen:Yeah, and--but it's not the narrative that we understand it as. We--we think of children. We think of, like, seven year olds.
Harvey:Right. So just keep in mind as I'm talking to this, I'm gonna say children a lot, because that's where my knowledge lies. There are autistic adults. Hello, hi! They are like you. Some of them aren't like you.
Pen:Some of them are you.
Harvey:Yep! That's a good addendum. So, yeah, Hispanic and Black children, significantly less likely to be diagnosed, and there's a couple reasons for that. There is, of course, just bias in the medical system that tends to dismiss the concerns of parents of color, particularly Black parents. There's also racial--marginalized--folks who hold--blugh. Folks who hold marginalized racial identities are also significantly more likely to be, you know, economically disadvantaged because of, you know, societal everything.
Pen:Yeah, because of fundamental racism in society.
Harvey:Because we live in a society. And this is something that I like to bring up, because not--not only does it shock people, but it's also important to bring up. So, Black autistic children are 5.4 times more likely to be diagnosed--misdiagnosed with a behavioral problem than white children before they are diagnosed with autism. So we're talking about things like conduct disorder, and you know, just general, like, disobeying parents, possibly acting out, being violent, which are things that can manifest in some forms of autism. Sometimes it does look like--sometimes it does look like being a little violent. Most of the time, it doesn't, but sometimes there is that lashing out component. In Black children that is significantly more--more likely to be perceived as just a behavior problem rather than a greater issue.
Pen:Rather than neurodivergence, and a fundamentally different brain that, especially when you're being pushed and put in situations that are uncomfortable and actively harmful for you by adults who are racist, fundamentally, going to push you beyond your limits and make it harder to rein in your instinctive responses, which might be meltdowns.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Yeah, sorry, I have feelings.
Harvey:No, no, you're absolutely right to bring it up. So, and--you know, this is--this is something that I feel is important to bring up, because, you know, I'm white, so there are some very typical ways in which, you know--I'm kind of the typical model for autism. I'm white and I appear masculine. The part where it gets a little messy is that, like, to most people, I don't look neurodivergent or act neurodivergent, except around other neurodivergent people, and they're like, "Oh!"
Pen:Yeah, that's a--that's a thing for--that's definitely a, like, oh, your brain is--okay. All right. Okay, cool, cool, cool.
Harvey:Yeah, but, you know, with me being white, I benefit from those systems of privilege. And it means thatm to some extent, I internalize them, so part of my job as a white person to unlearn that is to actively talk about these things and raise awareness, not only for myself, but also other people.
Pen:Yeah. And in the first recording we did, you asked me to think of--like, to describe what I thought of when I thought autistic child. And I did, like, think of a white child. And I said, like, I think that that's something that's probably likely to happen anytime I'm told to think of a child, I'm probably going to think white, until, you know, this unlearning process. So I think it's very useful to bring up, and sometime in the future, I should revisit some things on ADHD, both because, like, you can bet I have more things to say, and because I didn't include anything on ADHD and race, but I've definitely come across some things.
Harvey:Yeah. So the reason why I wanted to bring that up to start is I think that's something that is important to recognize when we're having any conversation about autism, that our knowledge base is largely about white, typically male children,.AMAB, like, you know, cis boy, as far as we know, children. So that's something I want to bring up, and that's probably something that we're going to see pop up concurrently-- r, not concurrently, like, consistently, throughout the episode.
Pen:Definitely.
Harvey:But with that, I know this isn't, like, an intro, but we can--I do want to give a broad overview of autism, and this --this information is something I pulled from the Autism Self Advocacy Network.
Pen:That's good.
Harvey:Yes. You said the exact same thing first episode.
Pen:Well, you know, the other well known organization...
Harvey:You can say Autism Speaks, it's okay.
Pen:Yeah, exactly. Autism Speaks.
Harvey:Autism Speaks as a terrible organization. We'll get into why later. But Autism Self Advocacy Network, or ASAN, A-SAN? I don't know. But that's a much better one.
Pen:Yeah. It's almost like autistic people being able to lead the conversation themselves is beneficial for conversation at large.
Harvey:That's wild, isn't it?
Pen:Yep.
Harvey:Pen just gave me the blankest stare when I said that.
Pen:Anyway, Harvey, talk.
Harvey:Sure. So ASAN provides these sort of six components of what sets autistic people apart from allistic people. And if you've never heard the term allistic before, it is basically just non autistic. But it--it's--creating language for it means that it's not "normal people and autistic people." It's kind of like cis and trans.
Pen:Yeah, definitely, and I think very useful in, like, not just saying, like, autistic people, and then people who aren't neurodivergent
Harvey:Which--right. Like, there is a lot of difference. Because you are neurodivergent, but you're also allistic.
Pen:Yeah. Like there's fundamental differences still.
Harvey:Yes, yes. So they bring up these--these six points that talk about how autistic people differ from allistic people. And this is probably the most surface level thing I could possibly say, but one is that we think differently, just straight up.
Pen: Different brain be like:I think different.
Harvey:Yeah, good job. I love you, Pen.
Pen:I love you too, Harvey.
Harvey:So there--and this is something that we've touched on quite a bit over the--over the course of Beyond Introspection, so I'm not going to spend too long on this. But there is, of course, the executive dysfunction thing, which we've talked about in several episodes. In ADHD--in
BEYOND--BEYOND Basics:ADHD and BEing Depressed. Both of those I remember brought up executive dysfunction. So if you're not familiar, I would recommend that you go listen to those. The ADHD episode is a very good one. Um, so yeah, there's--there is that. Executive dysfunction means that it's quite difficult--for me, it's--it's--I struggle with doing things that bother my sensory. And unfortunately, what this means for me is that sometimes I struggle with personal hygiene. That's--I know, Pen, you're not crazy about it when I shave my beard off, but some of why I do it is because having the beard can be a little bit unfortunate, for me, sensory wise, especially if it's been around for a while, so sometimes it is legitimately very comfortable for me to shave it all off and let it grow back fresh.
Pen:Well, um, hey, I'm glad that you do that for yourself. Because, like, you know, many reasons. First and foremost being I have no say over what you do with your body, and I support whatever decisions you make with it.
Harvey:That's true.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:So there's that. And then also, we--many of us folks with autism have--have special interests. And special interests are--the way that I would describe it--because autism is a spectrum disorder, it looks different from autistic person to autistic person--but for me, it's--it's a long and usually persistent interest in, you know, a particular thing. For me, it's usually media. But it's--it's very intense. It's like, you know, you research a thing ad nauseum, you kind of develop almost this encyclopedic knowledge of a thing. And I think there are some some core ways in which that is different from hyperfixation.
Pen:Yeah, definitely.
Harvey:To--how do you think hyperfixation differs from the way I described special interests?
Pen:Yeah, yeah. So, hyperfixation--I don't think I talked about it much in the episode on ADHD, like you mentioned it, but hyperfixation is-- Iactually did pull up a--well, some form of definition from ADDitude. "Hyperfocus, a common but confusing, symptom of ADHD is the ability to zero in intensely on an interesting project or activity for hours at a time." That's their, like, basic definition from the
article Understanding ADHD:Hyperfocus. So it's essentially like a tunnel vision kind of thing, I think is the best way I can put it, and it can be over slightly longer periods of time. But like, the hyperfixation version of a long period of time is closer to a few months, versus the special interest. extended period of time that's, like, several years.
Harvey:Potentially a lifetime. So yeah--and for me, the longest special interest I've had is Sonic the Hedgehog.
Pen:Yes!
Harvey:Pen loves it when I mentioned this.
Pen:I'm just delighted by it. I'm delighted by you.
Harvey:But yeah, I've been into Sonic since I was probably six, and I've been hooked on it ever since, and I'm turning 21 in a couple months, so we're coming up on, mm, 15 years that I've been into Sonic.
Pen:Yeah, if I hyperfocused on something that long, I would literally be dead.
Harvey:Yeah, and hyperfocus--or special interests, I should say, I don't think they're quite as intense as--as hyperfixations. Because for me, hyperfixation is very, very consuming, it seems. It's like, it really kind of consumes your brain, and it makes it hard to do other things.
Pen:It's like--it's the opposite side of the coin, from the distractibility where, like, my brain can't focus on anything and, like, it all just slides off, and hyperfocus is like, it's the only thing going on.
Harvey:Yeah, and well, with my special interest--for some folks, it can be like that. For me, it's more of a thing of, like, this is something that I really enjoy talking about, and I probably spend more time than the average--like, significantly more time than the average person engaging with those interests. However, I'm capable--I'm definitely, like, capable of doing other things quite easily, if I'm being honest. It's just like, the minute somebody asks me about one of my special interests like, "Oh, can I--can I tell you everything about it?"
Pen:You can play a Sonic video game and get up to drink water.
Harvey:Yes, I can. I can do that. But also, like, in a single day, I might spend, like, three to five hours playing a Sonic game.
Pen:Which I love.
Harvey:Which, you know, somebody who maybe wasn't autistic and had a casual enjoyment of Sonic the Hedgehog maybe wouldn't do that.
Pen:I love it when you do that kind of--I remember back when we were living in the--in the dorms, and I would just--several of us would--would sit out on the couch, and you would be playing Son-Sonic Mania, right?
Harvey:Yes.
Pen:It was amazing, especially when we could narrate along Other, Dumber Knuckles.
Harvey:So for context-
Pen:It's one of my treasured memories.
Harvey:For context, there's a--so "& Knuckles" is kind of a meme based on Sonic 3 & Knuckles, which was a Sonic the Hedgehog game. And sort of the"& Knuckles" addendum has become sort of a meme in recent years. So, in Sonic Mania, what you can do is you can turn on "& Knuckles" mode, which means that Knuckles just follows you along as an AI. However, Knuckles is also a playable character. So you can, in fact, play with Knuckles and Knuckles. Hence, Other, Dumber Knuckles.
Pen:Yeah, we made fun of the AI Knuckles for being less good at, you know, doing things, because it's an AI. So there was Harvey's Knuckles, and then there was Other, Dumber Knuckles.
Harvey:Yes. Some of my other special interests--I really only have three.--and also, the amount that you have at one time varies. Sometimes it's one, sometimes it's several. Right now there's, like, three, and some are more salient than others. But I also do have a special interest in Stardew Valley, specifically the character Harvey. I did not name myself after Harvey. People never believe me when I say it.
Pen:I believe you.
Harvey:I know you believe me, because you are my friend and you're nice.
Pen:Stardew Valley good game.
Harvey:Stardew Valley good game. But Harvey specifically is a character that I, like, hardcore fixate on. And then, also, music, just in general. Not so much, like, music theory because I'm brain dead.
Pen:Brain worms ate all the music theory.
Harvey:Yeah, no, I'm brain dead. But more like lyricism, that sort of thing. And I also collect records. My record collection is--I think I have something like 33?
Pen:Wow, that's a lot of them.
Harvey:Yeah, I've spent, like, an ungodly amount of money on records.
Pen: Music:Mitski; Harvey interests.
Harvey:I'm actually not as interested in Mitski as I used to be, but Mitski--I still really like Mitski. Mitski's still very cool.
Pen:Can I--can I say how I describe your music tastes?
Harvey:Oh, please.
Pen:Yeah, I would say generally, Harvey's taste in music, which, you know, there's a lot of variance in it.
Harvey:I'm pretty eclectic in terms of the kind of music I listen to.
Pen:But I have noticed that one of the consistent threads is that Harvey really likes listening to sad women who yell at them.
Harvey:Sad women who yell at me or cry, just a lot.
Pen:Just like sad, indie, women is a very common thread through Harvey's music taste.
Harvey:Mitski, Dodie, Sunday Cruise, Phoebe Bridgers...
Pen:Like, the reason that I know this is because sometimes we'll be in the car and Harvey will put on music, and, like, I won't have heard it before. But also, like, I would swear that two weeks ago, I did, in fact, hear it. Not to say they all sound the same, it's just like--
Harvey:I mean, they kind of do.
Pen:This is a sad woman.
Harvey:This is a woman being very, very sad. And every now and then I have the occasional sad man. Hozier.
Pen:Oh, God, Hozier's so good.
Harvey:So those are just some of the examples of how we think differently. We also process senses differently, which is something that we've touched on before. And--and it's interesting because I'm also I'm also a touch hard of hearing. Because of repeated ear infections, I've lost something like 15% of my hearing. So it's not--it's not like--it's not like, super significant, but it does impair me in some ways. I have trouble with harder--with higher registers for the most part. But all of this to say, sensing for me is a bit strange. Definitely, I would say that I feel senses maybe more intensely. So, a light that is bright to--to an allistic person--er, I should really say neurotypical--a light, depends, but broadly, a light that might be just bright to neurotypical people, is, like, just blinding and, like, super uncomfortable for me. With sound--sound doesn't tend to be too overwhelming because I don't hear that well, but there are certain sounds that really really bother me. Just very--just very, very particular ones that make me go, ugh, no. But yeah, things like that, just--for me, it's also, like, textures of clothes. I'm--I really only like to wear cotton. Anything other than cotton feels, like, super, super uncomfortable. And it just, like, kind of makes me want to crawl out of my skin a little bit. It's like, ugh.
Pen:Tagless clothes is a pretty consistent thread for autistic people.
Harvey:Oh, God. You know, I'm so glad that, like, clothes manufacturers have started moving more towards doing tagless clothing, because oh, my God, the tags just make me want to rip my skin off.
Pen:Yeah, that's--yeah, I vibe.
Harvey:Yeah, and there's also, like, just--actually I say that it's like--I actually think it might be tactile. There are certain--ugh--tactile things that really bug me, which are common, but--
Pen:Did you, um--you just thought of one of them, didn't you?
Harvey:I did. I thought of styrofoam.
Pen:Mm! It's the sounds for me.
Harvey:It's the texture--it's the texture for me. But let's stop talking about that one.
Pen:It squeaks, I hate it.
Harvey:Ugh. Paper--paper is also a problem for me.
Pen:Oh, no. No!
Harvey:I hate the texture of paper particularly. Now, printer paper is, like, okay, it's--it's, like, paper that they put in sketchbooks. Yeah, I'm an artist. So the texture--and paper towels, the texture of paper--
Pen:Oh, my God, this is so sad!
Harvey:Yeah, there's something about it being textured and not just being smooth, although printer paper kind of bothers me. Like, all paper, really.
Pen:This is horrible. I'm so sorry.
Harvey:Yeah, but it's--it's some very specific things where it's just like, a normal person wouldn't think twice--normal--a neurotypical person wouldn't think twice about it, and I just, ugh.
Pen:Yeah, that's--this is very useful for a second perspective for me, too, because I absolutely have sensory processing issues--quite a few of them--but, like, in some ways, it doesn't occur to me, like, the--the variable ways that it can happen for different people.
Harvey:Yeah, and for me, it's--it's largely, like, visual and tactile. We also communicate differently. So, one of the ways that we communicate differently is through echolalia, which is--which is something that we've talked about before. And--and for some autistic folks, particularly, like, less verbal ones, they may only communicate by, or primarily communicate by, repeating words or phrases. So--I think this is an example I've used in in the first recording--if, like--if a kid is upset that the door is open, and you know, like, someone walks up to them and says, "Are--why are you upset? Is it because of the door?" and that person might say "Door, door door," over, and over, and over again, which could mean something to the effect of, "I want you to close the door" And you can sort of answer--and you can sort of ask those follow-up questions, just, like, "Do you want the door closed?" And you know, they--they have their own way of telling you yes or no. But also, it can be like kind of a stimming thing, much like it is for me and Pen.
Pen:Yeah! It's like a mutual stim.
Harvey:We do just repeat words back and forth sometimes.
Pen:It's nice. I like it.
Harvey:It just feels nice. There's also scripting, which, you know, social scripts. You know, just--generally, just, like, the--the way that we are supposed to interact with the world, in every situation we're in. Even mundane things like going to a restaurant, right?
Pen:Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Harvey knows that I'm excited about this. The first time we did this recording, they were like, "Pen, you look like you're gonna--you--you look like you want to say something so bad." And it's that, like, one of my favorite communication theories that I learned about in interpersonal communication is the Theory of Social Scripts. And, you know, the basic example that they use is going to a restaurant, and how there is, like, an expected order of things. Like. you go in, you expect to be seated and they come by, and they give you the menus and they ask about drinks, and then they get you the drinks, and they come back and ask for the food and all that. And if any one of those steps was different, it would throw people off.
Harvey:Yeah, you know, that actually reminds me. My presumably neurotypical--one of my presumably neurotypical psychology professors is from Germany originally. And in Germany, there, nobody seats you, you just find your own seat. So the first time she went to a restaurant in America, she just went to sit down and everyone's like, what are you doing?
Pen:Yep. See, it really throws people off. For a lot of neurotypical people--And this is something I hadn't actually thought about--my--my girlfriend, and our mutual friend, Emily, brought this to my attention while back, but for neurotypical people, social scripts are something that they're probably less consciously aware of. But for neurodivergent folks, and I'm sure what you're getting at is specifically autistic folks, it's something that we have to be a lot more cognizant of, because, you know, for us society doesn't make any sense.
Harvey:Yup. So--so there's that. And--and scripting for autistic people specifically, it's a lot of really mundane things, too. Like, going to the doctor or talking to an advisor is something that I plan out ahead of time. I make sure I know exactly what I'm going to say. So I--and I do that based off of what I have learned is, quote unquote, appropriate. Speaking of, I have an advising appointment tomorrow to declare a minor and I definitely have thought about what I'm going to say. So, you know.
Pen:My understanding is that it's different than like a social anxiety type thing of, like, thinking through what you're going to do.
Harvey:Yeah. It's--it's less of a thing of, like, "Oh, I don't want to look stupid." It's just like, "Okay, well, I'm going to be in this situation. And I know, from the situation, I'm expected to do XYZ, so I'm going to say, ABC, so that I, you know, so that I make sure I'm, I'm, you know, dealing with this situation appropriately." So it's that sort of thing. And for nonverbal autistic people, we have things called AAC. Which, again, I forgot what AAC stands for--
Pen:I'm gonna Google it.
Harvey:Go for it. But AAC is essentially, like, kind of a--kind of a technology assisted form of communication. So, uh--did you find it?
Pen:Augment--Augmentative and Alternative Communication.
Harvey:Yes, thank you. And--and typically, if you've ever seen, like, possibly an autistic kid with an iPad, touching pictures, or even, like, people who are going through rehab and are not able to speak yet, because they may be been in a coma for a long time, that is AAC. It's just a way of communicating that doesn't require the mouth. Because often, I think more often than most people think, just because an autistic person is nonverbal does not mean that they are inherently at a cognitive deficit.
Pen:It's just different.
Harvey:It yeah. And there are some like genuine--genuine, um, psychological impairments that sometimes come with autism. That is real, I don't want to ignore that. And disability and impairment, they're not dirty words. But I do want to break down the idea that somebody who relies on AAC does not necessarily have a limited mental capacity.
Pen:Yeah, like that, that perception of if you do not speak verbally, then there must be something...
Harvey:Deficient?
Pen:Yeah, deficient. Which, like, sometimes that is the case, and sometimes it's just not the case. And I think it can be very important to normalize the idea that, sometimes, people are just nonverbal.
Harvey:And verbality it isn't consistent, either. There are definitely some situations where I feel significantly less able to talk. Like, physically, my mouth will not make the words, other than, like, right now, where I'm saying so many words. Pen and I are shaking hands.
Pen:Yeah, I also have some periods where I'm more likely to go nonverbal.
Harvey:And I've been taking a thousand years on this broad overview, so I'm just gonna hit the last three points real quick. We move differently. Motor skills are harder for people with autism. I'm super clumsy as a result, and I also have trouble with volume control. We socialize differently. Sort of the typical way that you hear about that is the lesser understanding of social cues, which is true. I--I am generally more direct than my peers, and I need people to be more direct toward me, otherwise, I have no idea what you're trying to tell me. And then there's also a common thought that autistic people have low or no empathy, and that is true sometimes. It is true that autism is sometimes associated with lower/no empathy. Empathy is not required to be a good person. Empathy is literally just your ability to kind of, like, literally put yourself in someone else's shoes and like tangibly feel the way that they feel, even if you've never gone through that before. Which is different from sympathy, which is just recognizing that something that someone is going through is tough, and you know, like really being like, "Oh, wow." Low empathy is not necessarily an indicator of how good of a person you are. So if you have low empathy, you are not a bad person. And if you think that people will low empathy or bad people, no, they're not.
Pen:Yeah. Empathy, sympathy, and, like, compassion, they're not--none of them are inherently linked with each other. Just because you have high empathy doesn't mean you're doing anything with it.
Harvey:Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Pen:It's conscious choices that really matter, I think, rather than your capacity to feel in particular ways.
Harvey:I would--yeah, I would say so. But a thing that is lesser known is that autism can also be associated with hyperempathy.
Pen:Harvey!
Harvey:Yeah. Which is--which is my case, I feel everyone's emotions very, very intensely, which sometimes concerns me,considering I want to become a counselor, but that's--that's a thing and it means that my life is is exhausting. But yeah, with the empathy thing, it's two ends of an extreme. Low or no empathy, or you have so much--so much empathy. And also, we may need help. Even folks like me, who are maybe on the, you know, I don't like to say high functioning, because I don't--I don't like that language. I get there are situations in which it can be useful. But--
Pen:It's typically a judgment that's kind of implied with it.
Harvey:Yeah. So I will say, on folks who are maybe on the lesson paired end of the spectrum, such as myself, I may not need as much help as other folks. But daily tasks are hard. And like, I think the big thing, especially for people--for autistic people who appear more, quote unquote, neurotypical is, we may just need to take more breaks. We may just need a little bit more buffer time. And then, you know, for folks who are maybe a bit more impaired on the end of the spectrum, there are some things that they may not be able to do at all without assistance, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Pen:No, that's--this is--sometimes, you're born with a brain that works in a way that people don't expect, and that has absolutely nothing to do with your worth or value as a person. Boy, wouldn't that be cool as, like, an understood concept!
Harvey:Right? So that was a little bit more than just an overview, it's also, like, getting into the nitty gritty of some of what that looks like.
Pen:If you--if you'll forget, it was beyond just the basics of it. I'm a little ashamed of that.
Harvey:No, I mean--I mean, that is what the episode is gonna be called.
Pen:Oh, no, I know. I was stretching it.
Harvey:You did your best, and I--
Pen:I knew it was gonna be bad.
Harvey:But now I can move into a little bit of a discussion on treatment, which we talked about in the last episode, and Pen was very upset, and I don't blame them.
Pen:I'm be upset again, you know it.
Harvey:Yeah, I do. So CBT--cognitive behavioral therapy--is one way to treat--I know.
Pen:It's--last time, my first response was, "Oh, that sounds really cool," because I think that cognition and behavior and, like, theories based on that are very neat.
Harvey:That's true. Yeah.
Pen:I should have realized society's fundamentally ableist.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Sorry for interrupting you, Harvey.
Harvey:That's okay. So cognitive behavioral therapy is one way to treat it. Um, in the end, I would say that it's I have found that, like, particularly when it comes to probably particularly for autistic adolescents and adults who are--who are maybe a bit more capable of--because children just, autistic or not, don't have the capacity to think abstractly about their own thoughts. That's just how development works. So that's probably for older autistic folks. But CBT is one way. It's particularly just for--I would say, that's more for just getting through life. And that things like social scripts, like, having it broken down also ties in with social skills training, which is, you know, exactly what it sounds like. Just giving autistic folks the tools that they need to go through life and society in sometimes and being told, like, yeah, this is the expected perhaps a more--what's the word I'm looking for?--functional way. Just--just something that is going to work a little bit etter for the structure arou d them. Now we can--we can tal about dismantling that str cture and changing it, but som times--sometimes you do have to ake do. script of it, can be very useful if it's not something you're going to perceive on your own. Right? Yeah, no, absolutely. And then the one that Pen got mad about was ABA. And if you've never heard of ABA, ABA is applied behavior analysis.
Pen:I thought it sounded cool, because I think analyzing behavior is neat, but...
Harvey:Well--and here's the thing: ABA is not an inherently bad thing. ABA can be really, really useful, and it is often really useful. Things involving behavioral therapy are kind of the gold standard for psychology, and that is mixed. But...
Pen:Psychology is also super screwed up as a field, especially historically.
Harvey:Oh, absolutely. But yeah, I mean, behavioral therapy, applied behavior analysis, is really useful for, like, maybe treating kids who do have legitimate, you know, behavior problems, not just autistic Black kids who are diagnosed with conduct disorder because the medical system is racist. You know, ABA can be really useful for things like that. It's also really useful for phobias and for social anxiety.
Pen:I'm sorry, just, I hear social anxiety and I'm like, oh, that's me!
Harvey:No, totally, totally. ABA can be useful, um, and in--in, if it was done correctly, it could be--er, rather, not done correctly, because it is done correctly. When ABA is applied to autism, it's just that which is considered correct is extremely unethical.
Pen:Applied compassionately, perhaps,
Harvey:Yeah, applied compassionately, and possibly just to another end. It might be okay. The problem with ABA as it stands for autistic folks is that it relies a lot on eliminating stimming--self stimulatory behaviors. And I think there is something to be said for that if those stims are self injurious. Like, if you have a kid, you know, banging their head on a table, which happens sometimes, then it's--it's worth considering, like, okay, maybe--maybe we try to get them to not do this anymore. And we give them an alternative, like, maybe we give them, like, a drum, or they can hit the table with their hands to, like, make a little drumming noise. But you know, typically, the thing with behavioral therapy is that, unless the behavior is severe, you really do just want to direct that behavior to something that fulfills a similar goal, but is safer. And that's not the stims that they're trying to get rid of 100% of the time. That's part of it, but they're also trying to get rid of just completely, like, non harmful stims, because... I don't know, they look strange, and that might get the kid ostracized. And, look, here's the thing. It's actually not the job of autistic people to be palatable for allistic people.
Pen:You're right, and you should say it.
Harvey:Listen, y'all allistics are just gonna get have to get used to the fact that I flap my hands sometimes, and that I walk around humming or repeating phrases. I'm not--I'm not apologizing for it, I don't feel bad about it.
Pen:Nor should you.
Harvey:So that's where the issues with ABA lie. It's--it's in its application, the way that it is applied. And the big thing that you see is these kids getting very, very distressed. And distress is normal, in some cases with--with behavioral therapy. But stimming is a way that people, autistic people, especially, self regulate. Stimming, for me, is sometimes a way for me to manage sensory overload. If I'm experiencing an uncomfortable stimulus, I do one that I like, so that I can feel a little bit better. And you are taking this legitimately useful tool away from kids and teaching them that, from a young age, and Pen, I think you pointed this out last episode, that it's wrong to do that and to self regulate.
Pen:It's--this is abuse. The reason that it's distressing children is because they are being actively mistreated in directly harmful ways. Like, we had our--our separate episode on--on stimming, and so we've talked about stimming before. But like, and while it's not exclusive to autistic people, like, it is really, really hugely relevant when talking about autistic people, especially in, like, stereotypes and things that pop up. And it's--I know that hand flapping in particular is one that people tend to come back to because it's relatively common and just...
Harvey:And visible.
Pen:--because it looks strange to do that, it's treated as something that's wrong and needs to be taken away, when, like, I flap my hands sometimes, typically when I am experiencing joy. And the idea of someone, like, trying to train me, directly, train someone out of something they are doing to express joy cannot be anything other than mistreating and abusing that person.
Harvey:Like, at best, unnecessary, and more realistically, abusive. So that's--unless your kid is harming themselves and they will not stop, don't--don't send them to ABA.
Pen:And as you--as you touched on, the way to try and help with stimming that might be harmful, like banging your head or, like, scratching yourself and things like that is to move to a different form of stimming that isn't harmful, not to eliminate stimming entirely from your child.
Harvey:Yes. You just want to transfer it to a different behavior.
Pen:Don't--don't try and prevent children from interacting with the world around them.
Harvey:Or self regulating. Self regulating is the thing I want to keep coming back to. Stimming is such a major part of self regulation. Don't take that away, your kid's going to suffer so much more. So with that heavy discussion out of the way, I want to talk about some fun facts, and also comorbidities, which I think are fun facts, but that's because I'm a psych nerd.
Pen:No, I--I also think it's a fun fact, so here we are.
Harvey: So, a short little fact:so, autism and trans identity are correlated, which is--which is something I think I've known in the back of my head since I was a teenager, because I'm trans and autistic, and many of my friends are trans and autistic. But there was a study that found that somewhere between--er, excuse me, that somewhere--around 14% of the trans and non binary people that they surveyed, had a diagnosis of autism, and a further 28% met the criteria for autism.
Pen:That is so many.
Harvey:Yeah, and to put that in context, about 1% to 2% of the general population has autism.
Pen:Yeah, that is--that is over a quarter of people who are trans and nonbinary.
Harvey:Yeah, at least in this study. And--and the broader demographics could look different. But that is still a significant difference. And--and there's a couple of theories for that. My general thought is that, like, you know, social cues and things like that are sort of alien to autistic people. So therefore, the--the gender roles and the social scripts, frankly, associated with being a man or being a woman make less sense. And we also, like you mentioned, when we recorded this the first time, we have to question them more. Which may also lead to questioning our gender and being like, you know what? Maybe I actually am not, cis. Maybe my gender is more complicated than that.
Pen:Maybe gender actually is not... hm! Pass.
Harvey:I'm thinking--I don't remember exactly what it's called, but there was, like some super edgy, like, adult-oriented Sesame Street parody that was out in the early 2000s. And one of the questions that they asked the kids was, "What is love?" And--and one of the kids answered, "A neurochemical con job." [Pen laughs] And I was about to refer to gender that way, that gender is a neurochemical con job.
Pen:Gender is a neurotypical con job.
Harvey:Ah, yeah, that's a better one. Thanks!
Pen:Jokes. Collaborative humor.
Harvey:So there is--there is that little tidbit that--that autistic people are much more likely to identify as trans, it seems. And that could be for many reasons.
Pen:And as you--as you pointed out, the first time we recorded this--yeah, folks, this is a fun recording, in which we've already talked about a lot of this, so we're doing our best to give it to you--but this doesn't mean that because your kid is trans, they're going to be autistic, or because your kid is autistic, they're going to be trans. Like, correlation and causation are not the same thing. And also, not that it'd be a bad thing anyway,
Harvey:Nope. Nothing wrong with being trans, nothing wrong with being autistic.
Pen:If you're both, it just means you have two cool things about you. And IBS. [Pen laughs]
Harvey:Yes. So that actually segues extremely well into the next thing I wanted to talk about, which was some comorbidities with autism. One of them being, yes, gastrointestinal problems. No one's really sure why this is the case. But it is remarkably common for autistic folks to have stomach and digestive problems. I've got three. Not formally diagnosed, but presumably I have IBS. I have GERD, acid reflux, which I am diagnosed with. And then I'm also lactose intolerant.
Pen:I make fun of Harvey constantly for this. Lovingly!
Harvey:I really like dairy. I eat a lot of ice cream. I eat a lot of cheese. I do just drink milk by the glass. I love dairy more than anyone I know. And I am-
Pen:Lack toes in toddler ants, you fool.
Harvey:Yes.
Pen:Now, dairy also makes me feel a little bit sick, and I keep doing it, so I'm a total hypocrite here, but I've been making fun of Harvey for this for, like, two years at this point, so... They--they glared at me.
Harvey:Some other comorbidities: anxiety is remarkably common with--with autistic folks. Depression also shows up sometimes but it's a little less common. And then tinnitus, also. I have tinnitus, and that's probably a combination of being autistic and also having hearing loss. Because, you know, damage to the ears causes tinnitus.
Pen:Buh-bye.
Harvey:Buh-bye. But yeah, I mean, like, I pretty much always have a ringing in my ears, and that's something that is pretty common among autistic folks. Again, nobody knows why, but my guess is hypersensitivity to, like, sensory stuff.
Pen:That's--yeah, I've looked into a bit, links between sensory processing issues and tinnitus which, surprise, surprise, there's not a ton of room research on. Natch. But that's because that's something that I also--like, I've had tinnitus for as long as I remember. And broadly speaking, you're not born with tinnitus. That's not typically how it works. So, usually it's--it comes from, like, damage to the ears. And so, like, links between having sensory processing issues and your ears just being like, "What if there was a xylophone just ringing? Just going?"
Harvey:You know, if it sounded like a xylophone, I think I would hate my tinnitus a lot less.
Pen:Remember the time that we went to, like, a recital thing for Em, and one of the people had--they did like, it was a xylophone or, like, chimes or something? And there was one note that they hit, and Harvey and I just looked at each other. We're like, that is exactly what tinnitus sounds like. That note just repeating was like, oh, good, now it's outside my head.
Harvey:Oh, no. And it was, like, some super, like, experimental piece, too. So of course, it was like vaguely pretentious. And then it also sounded like tinnitus.
Pen:Because they used crystal mallets, so it keeps ringing, too. And it was like, great. Good.
Harvey:It's like, shut up, shut up, shut up, the only reason I'm here is because of my best friend.
Pen:Good and great.
Harvey:So I want to close this episode by talking about why Autism Speaks sucks.
Pen:Woo!
Harvey:And literally, in my notes, the heading is "Autism Speak sucks," because it does. So, a couple things about why Autism Speaks sucks. It is more targeted at helping parents than children, which inherently is not a bad thing. Like, there should be resources for parents of autistic children. Allistic parents, especially, of autistic children
Pen:Absolutely! You want to be informed of things. Treat your children well.
Harvey:the problem is, it's made in the parents' best interest and not the child's.
Pen:Oh, so it's not about treating your children well.
Harvey:No.
Pen:Hmm.
Harvey:There--I remember, like--and also treats autism like--like a disease that needs to be cured. There--I'm pretty sure, don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure Autism Speaks is a proponent of ABA, so there's that. And I remember, like, there was this ad campaign they put out once called, like,"I Am Autism." And it's--it's treating autism like--like a horror movie. You know, and just like, "I'm autism, and I'm
gonna, like, ruin your life.:" Like it was a bit more verbose than that. But yeah, I mean, it does that. And they also, like, center the story of--I told you about this in the last episode--of like a woman who tried to drive her, like, almost drove her and her kid off of a cliff because her kid was autistic. And it's like, you shouldn't be a mother, actually.
Pen:This is a problem with the mother.
Harvey:I'm going to bite you.
Pen:This--there is--there is no reason you should ever do that. Your child cannot be the blame for that situation. They're a child.
Harvey:Like, one, there's nothing wrong with being autistic, two, it's not like your kid made the decision.
Pen:Like you--there is no justification. A child just sort of exists. And if your child existing makes you want to drive your car off a cliff, I don't think you should be caring for that child.
Harvey:No. No, no, no. There are also no autistic people on the board of directors.
Pen:Seems like not--not a good organization for helping autistic folks. Huh.
Harvey:If you're trying to help autistic folks, autistic people should be leading that conversation. That doesn't mean allistic people shouldn't be involved. They should.
Pen:I'm here talking to you.
Harvey:Yes. But autistic people need to be leading that discussion, and need to be there to call out the idiot allistic people who say that vaccines cause autism.
Pen:Oh, my God.
Harvey:Also, vaccines don't cause autism.
Pen:No. The one single study that actually, like, had those results was--it was doctored. Like that wasn't actually accurate in any respect. It wasn't--didn't you say the guy had his medical license revoked?
Harvey:Doctored so extensive--extensively that the guy lost his medical license. That should tell you all you need to know.
Pen:So yeah, vaccines and autism, there's absolutely no link by any real science that has been done is one, two,
Harvey:It's also like, oh, okay, so you'd rather have a autism is not a bad thing, so even if vaccinating your child against, hmm, polio, would cause autism, which it doesn't and can't, vaccines are still a good thing. I know that's not the point, but I just want to--want to be out here saying that because every single antivax thing, especially things that are focused on, like, what if it causes neurodivergence? It's like, okay, neurodivergence isn't bad. And also, what if we didn't have polio? Still, that would be cool. dead child than a neurodivergent one? Cool.
Pen:That's A+.
Harvey:I can't wait for somebody to take this bit out of
context:I was vaccinated as a child and now I'm gay, trans, autistic, and a liberal.
Pen:I got my HPV vaccine and turned bisexual.
Harvey:And more about the--
Pen:Actually, I think that might have been around the time I came out. [Laughter]
Harvey:Yep, the HPV vaccine turned you bisexual, Pen.
Pen:I felt nauseous and faint, and then I liked girls. [Harvey laughs]
Harvey:[Coughs] Oh, man.
Pen:I might take this out of context for, like, bonus...
Harvey:Oh, wow. I sound like my grandmother. Jesus. Um, anyway, so more on the board of directors, there was an autistic man on the board of directors at one point who left pretty quickly because he did not feel respected. Shockingly.
Pen:Poor guy.
Harvey:I'm being--I'm being sarcastic. But, Jesus, yeah, there's--and also, the nail in the coffin: So much more of the funds they collect go to compensating the board members and actually helping families, so they don't even put their money where their mouth is. Also 40% of their money goes to advertising. So like...
Pen:Like, their mouth sucks, also. It's just a bad mouth.
Harvey:It's just spewing garbage.
Pen:This is, um, oh, that I wanted to potentially bring up when you're brought up treating autism. Yeah, there's a--there's a couple of things that I had brought up on the first time we tried this. But one of them, when it comes to treating autism, I know you brought up briefly last time that it's very, very different than, like, ADHD where I take medication to help with my ADHD, help me focus and things, especially because, you know, ADHD is caused at least in part by dopamine deficiency. That's not--there's not pills for autism.
Harvey:No. It's--no, it's one of those things. And ADHD doesn't go away.
Pen:No, it doesn't. There's no cure for either of them. And anyone who is trying to tell you, or like, search for a cure for neurodivergence, don't trust them.
Harvey:They are wrong and also ableist.
Pen:Yeah, that's--it's fundamentally wrong. But like even when it comes to treating autism, like, what we talked about with, like, behavioral therapies and things, like, that's--it's very different than looking for a cure, and it's also focused on like, improving people's--like, autistic people's lives.
Harvey:Yes, yes, absolutely. So I think I've said everything that I want to say. Pen, do you have anything you'd like to add?
Pen:Yeah, there was the--the thing on--so Autism Speaks, is they have a thing, they're like blue puzzle piece, or like when there's Autism Awareness week, or month, or day, or whatever, and they do, like, the light it up blue thing. If you want to support autistic people, one, go to places like the Autism Self-Advocacy Network, like, support autistic people buy directly supporting autistic people, not neurotypical people who are demonizing autism. But also, like, maybe you are intending to find a way to support them, and you're like, oh, I mean, like, I like the concept of light it up blue, or whatever. I have seen red instead--some autistic people use, which is exactly what it says on the tin, like, using red instead of blue. And also when it comes to supporting, trying to show your support. There was a story that I--I saw, someone made a post, like, that their school was trying to be like support of autism, and so they changed all the lights in the cafeteria to blue ones, and the person in question had to leave because it was such a bad sensory experience. If you're looking to support neurodivergent people in general, but in this case, specifically autistic people, try to be cognizant of things that are actually going to be supportive and helpful and not unpleasant.
Harvey: Like, here's an idea:Give me a glass--
Pen:10,000 US dollars.
Harvey:I was getting to that. Give me a glass of juice, a nice blanket, a stuffie, some nice headphones, and 10,000 US dollars.
Pen:If you're looking to support autistic people, you
absolutely should:maybe don't change the basics of their sensory environments.
Harvey:And if you do, make it so that the lights are dimmer, or the s--or the sounds are quieter.
Pen:That would be nice.
Harvey:And also, I would like a glass of juice and 10,000 US dollars.
Pen:What kind of juice?
Harvey:Cranberry. I respect you. Healthy choices. It will hurt me. [Pen laughs]
Pen:Harvey consumes food for pain. [Unintelligible] pain.
Harvey:Okay, anything else you'd like to add?
Pen:No, I don't think so. Oh, actually, yeah, one one brief thing.
Harvey:Go ahead.
Pen:Uh, and this is more just, like, kind of a--there's--you may have noticed, folks, in our discussion, that there were a lot of things that Harvey brought up and I was like, oh, yeah, I totally get that, because there are significant overlaps in the symptoms of ADHD and autism.
Harvey:I can't believe I didn't talk about that with the comorbidities. Yes. Autism and ADHD are super comorbid. Something like a third of all people with one have the other.
Pen:Yeah, which is very, very cool. And that's essentially what I wanted to bring up. Like, in our cases, specifically, we--between you, me, and your boyfriend, we have, like, the full spectrum of it. You just have autism, I just have ADHD, he has both.
Harvey:Yes.
Pen:But yeah, yeah. It's something that is sometimes comorbid. And even when it isn't comorbid, there are those overlaps, which I really appreciate because it helps us understand each other better, and sometimes have things like the mutual stimming with echolalia. Where it's just, we get it.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:I just think that's neat.
Harvey:That is just neat. Okay, well stick around for just a few moments, and we will tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is run, our Patreon, and also, Heather, you're great. We love you.
Pen:Heather, you're fantastic. Heather, so that everyone knows was someone who sent in--messaged us on Instagram. Very, very kind messages. So one, Heather, thank you so, so, so much. We were both just, like, deeply moved by it. And two, folks, if you are at all hesitant in reaching out to us and--just--just know how much it means to us to receive those messages.
Harvey:Yeah. Beyond Introspection is an independently-run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at ByndPodcast or you can email us at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com. That's beyond d-o-t podcast, no spaces. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description.
Pen:We also have a Patreon. You can find us at patreon.com/beyondintrospection. That's all one word. We also have links to it on our site and on our social media. Our podcast is entirely independent, so we pay for hosting fees and transcript service subscriptions out of pocket. This is a passion project that we're really happy to do, and any support you're able to give us would really make a difference. On our
Patreon there are four tiers:$2, which gives you access to test audio and other bloopers;$5 which will give you access to bonus episodes that will make in the future, on topics like how angry we are Freud, our frustrations with our respective fields of studies and even guest episodes; $10 will get you a direct line and priority access to request episode topics and new bonus content; and $15, which will give you access to monthly AMAs--that's ask me anything for those who don't know--where we can answer questions ranging from the podcast process and we figure out what to record, more in depth questions about our neurodivergences, and more. All of those tiers will include benefits from lower tiers of course. And also just to note, unlike our regular episodes, Patreon bonus content is likely to include swearing, so if that's not your vibe, please know that ahead of time. We'd also love it if you're able to share this podcast with people you know. Our only advertising is word of mouth and we want to reach as many people as possible.
Harvey:Got feedback for us? Want to request an episode topic? Just feel like saying hello? Feel free to reach out on social media, or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.