INTRO to Self-Care

Harvey and Pen discuss mainstream ideas of self-care, how they sometimes fall short, and some of their own methods for figuring out what self-care looks like for different people.

Featuring: Finding self-care in the wild; Oops, it's gentrification; Executive dysfunction can't be fixed by meditation but thanks anyway; Unique stressors have to mean unique solutions; Helpful tip: It's okay to make life easier for yourself; Minecraft can be meditation; We have a Patreon!



Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People: 

https://translifeline.org/

USA Suicide Prevention: 

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

Internation Suicide Hotlines: 

https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines

Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People: 

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/


Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:

https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte

Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:

https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/

https://stopaapihate.org/

Resources for US Immigrants:

https://www.informedimmigrant.com/

Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:

https://immigrationjustice.u

Transcript

Pen: 0:11

Welcome to the Beyond introspection podcast. I'm Pen.

Harvey: 0:14

And I'm Harvey.

Pen: 0:15

This is a podcast where we talk about mental health, neurodivergence and how it impacts literally every aspect of our lives.

Harvey: 0:21

All of them.

Pen: 0:22

Every--every one of them. And in terms of how neurodivergence affects our lives, we're going to talk about self care. And specifically how these self care tips that are sort of traditionally given, like bubble baths, and--what do people say you should do for self care?

Harvey: 0:42

I don't know. Like, do a face mask? Like, go for a walk? You know, like--like, straight people stuff?

Pen: 0:48

Straight--

Harvey: 0:50

I don't know if I should say that, but--

Pen: 0:52

I mean, it's definitely--there is, I think some, like, neurotypical stuff, kind of, in there, where it's like, all right, all right. That's--that's nice, Lauren, but like, self care often looks different for neurodivergent people. Oh, meditation.

Harvey: 1:08

Oh, my God.

Pen: 1:08

Meditation is the big one for me. Take care of yourself, do meditation, do yoga... I mean, yoga is good for you.

Harvey: 1:14

Yes.

Pen: 1:14

Genuinely--

Harvey: 1:14

Genuinely.

Pen: 1:15

Like, physically, like, yeah.

Harvey: 1:16

I do yoga.

Pen: 1:16

I should do--I should do yoga. I should do yoga. But, like, meditation.

Harvey: 1:21

Yeah, it's like, hey, you know, not to get too much into it immediately, but just a first thought I have. Yeah, bubble baths are nice. I like to take them sometimes. That isn't actually going to stop me from wanting to kill myself. So like...

Pen: 1:39

I--you're not wrong, is the thing. Like, that is--I think that's the part of it, is--the self care that neurodivergent people have to do is going to be fundamentally different than the self care that neurotypical people do, because the way our stress looks is inherently different. And that also depends on like, what kind of neurodivergent you are. Like, someone who has depression, and that is all, that's going to look different than the self care of, like, one of us. Like, ADHD and autism, you need different things.

Harvey: 2:08

[Sing-song] Different things. So before we--before we dive too much into this, so as not to just, like, pick our listeners up by the ankles, and just, like, swing them like a baseball bat--

Pen: 2:20

Uh-huh.

Harvey: 2:21

I'm very curious to know, sort of--I think maybe a

good jumping off point might be: 2:24

What are sort of--what's sort of the view of self care that you've seen out and about?

Pen: 2:37

Yeah, that's--that's a good question. Self care came up, honestly, pretty regularly at the staff meetings that we had at the GSRC when I worked there. Because, you know, we cared about each other. And we're very aware of that kind of thing. And so when I've seen self care come up, sometimes it's been in therapy. And sometimes it's been when I'm talking to people who, like, work stressful jobs, and have like, inherently stressful lives as a thing of like, hey, sometimes you're going to just be burned out, and it's important that you know how to take care of yourself when that happens, Or like, um, during finals week, they'll have, like, on this day, you can come pet dogs, and--

Harvey: 3:20

--which we can we can get into where that does and doesn't fall short, but like, I like petting the puppies.

Pen: 3:25

Oh, yeah, I love when they do it. But, like, that's--that's where I've seen it come up, like just sort of in the wild. Especially when it's not with people who like, genuinely understand how taxing life can be with your specific identity is like, hey, it's finals week, we have dogs and coloring sheets.

Harvey: 3:43

I think--

Pen: 3:43

Self care!

Harvey: 3:45

I think saying "in the wild" is a really funny way to put that, because I am just sort of imagining like, I don't know, like, some lions in the savanna, like, putting on a face mask and like meditating or something.

Pen: 3:55

Oh, gosh,

Harvey: 3:56

Just trying to, like, align their--

Pen: 3:58

A-lion!

Harvey: 3:59

[Laughter] I was about to say align chakras, but then it occurred to me that that might be kind of racist, so I'm not...

Pen: 4:07

I think when white people say, "Oh, I'm just trying to align my chakras," then it's like--

Harvey: 4:13

It's like, shut up.

Pen: 4:14

I mean, you can do yoga, but how about we just stop? We just stop right there.

Harvey: 4:19

Yeah, so I'm not gonna make a joke about aligning chakras. But um, yeah, it's--that's also been very much my experience of catching self care out in the wild. Although, the strange thing about it is I don't think I've seen self care talked much about until probably five years ago.

Pen: 4:39

Yes. Yeah. It--I remember when it started being something people actually talked about, and from there sort of took off like bath bombs.

Harvey: 4:48

Yeah, I mean, I love bath bombs. Look, not to be a hipster, but I liked bath bombs before it was cool.

Pen: 4:54

Too late.

Harvey: 4:54

When I was six years old, my grandma used to buy me bath bombs, and I would take a bath, and she would be like,"Hey kiddo, do you want a--do you want a bath bomb?" And I'm like, "Yes!" because I was six years old.

Pen: 5:07

Okay, you know what's better than bath bombs? You know what's the real self care?

Harvey: 5:10

What's that?

Pen: 5:11

Those, like, little sponges that would come in the capsules that when you put them in, like bath water, or just any water, like, the capsules dissolved and then you get like a little dinosaurs sponge. That's real self care.

Harvey: 5:23

That is real self care. It's like--it's like a reverse shrinky dink.

Pen: 5:27

It is like a reverse shrinky dink. Perfect.

Harvey: 5:31

But yeah, I mean, it's--it's a very, like--It's self care that's supposed to be management for stress, I think. Which, that's valuable. It's valuable, because, even if you aren't neurodivergent, everyone experiences stress. Especially with us, when we were at the college level--and I'm still in college--you know, our college students and our high school students, too, let's be real, are under an unbelievable amount of stress all the time, because of the amount of pressure that the United States puts on academic achievement and financial success. Pen is, like, rolling their eyes, just for the context that I'm getting.

Pen: 6:14

Pen has a lot of opinions about this.

Harvey: 6:16

As do I.

Pen: 6:17

And like, genuinely, a university making an extra effort during finals week, to be like, "Hey, take care of yourselves," Like, that's not a bad thing.

Harvey: 6:25

No.

Pen: 6:26

It tends to be sort of shallow, but--

Harvey: 6:29

Performative.

Pen: 6:30

Yeah, there's stuff there. Um, I think, right now--When I first floated this idea, this--this topic idea, it was the week of the election results.

Harvey: 6:42

That's right.

Pen: 6:43

And we focused instead on the episode we did with Ari and Trevon and Demetrea. And I'm glad we did that, like, It was important, but--

Harvey: 6:51

It was a [chef's kiss] wonderful episode.

Pen: 6:52

Yes. I--it's gonna be funny on the transcript, like you're gonna have to actually put like, in brackets chef kiss. That's gonna be great. Anyway, when I floated this, it was like, hey, I think everyone's kind of stressed right now. And it's--when you're given this sort of one dimensional way that self care looks, just this list of things that are like, this is what self care is, that's all, that can be really limiting and how you're able to just take care of yourself and process your own stress.

Harvey: 7:26

Yeah, and I definitely don't want to sit there and disparage the sort of mainstream forms of self care, because it's genuinely useful for folks who aren't neurodivergent in some ways. For stress management, things like taking a bath and going to pet a dog and things along those lines are genuinely really, really helpful.

Pen: 7:49

Release the good chemicals in the brain,

Harvey: 7:51

Oxytocin.

Pen: 7:52

[Sing-song] Oxytocin.

Harvey: 7:54

[Sing-song] Oxytocin. Which you also get from hugs and cuddling. So if you're feeling really stressed, and you have somebody that you can hug for a prolonged period of time, genuinely, it'll help you.

Pen: 8:04

Oh, yeah. You know, the first time I think I learned about this? Was when--I have no idea what the context was, but it might have been like school or something. They brought up--I know, some like elementary school, maybe middle school--like, bringing animals like cats and stuff into hospitals for people who are sick, or just, like, kind of stuck there for a while, just to pet, because it like relaxes them and releases good chemicals.

Harvey: 8:28

Yes. But you know, like--like--like, we've been alluding to sort of for the past couple of minutes, it's--it's a limited view of self care, that in many ways is not compatible with the way that neurodivergent people--

Pen: 8:45

I want to--I want to disparage it a little bit. I think it's great that you--like, I totally appreciate you. I do want to be a little salty, because that's sort of my--that's my personality.

Harvey: 8:56

And I'm not going to ask you to fully agree with me.

Pen: 8:59

No--

Harvey: 8:59

Because then our podcast wouldn't be interesting.

Pen: 8:59

--I do agree with you. But I'm also--I'm frustrated with it. And I do want to--I want to disparage it, just really, really briefly, by calling it extremely white, extremely neurotypical, extremely--tends to be very heterosexual, tends to be cisgendered, in the fact that a lot of the people who talk about it are that. And sometimes the access to it also assumes, like, being that kind of person. Especially if you're like middle class where, like, y u have free time and access o just getting a bunch of b th bombs or whatever, and al o, being kind of racist so etimes vis-a-vis chakras. Li e, I think there are some th ngs where it's like, hey, we ne d to be cognizant of how th re are a lot of things that ar almost like, gentrifyi

Harvey: 9:58

Oh my god. I think--I think you just captured it. I think in some ways the the mainstream view of self care is a gentrification of therapy.

Pen: 10:11

Oh, wow, that's--oh--

Harvey: 10:15

God, doesn't that--

Pen: 10:15

I think we have a good point, but that's like--

Harvey: 10:17

Oh, I wish we didn't, though.

Pen: 10:19

So depressing. Oh, my God. Well, it is, like--I dislike how limited it is. And I dislike--it's important to take care of stress.

Harvey: 10:31

Yes.

Pen: 10:32

Extremely. We talked about in the last episode, like, hey, if there's a lot of stress, your brain breaks.

Harvey: 10:39

Yeah.

Pen: 10:39

It's not good for you.

Harvey: 10:41

So stress--self care methods that particularly target stress are super important, but that can't be where you stop.

Pen: 10:48

No. And also, I would love more recognition that stress looks different for different people, and with self care that you have to do for stress when you are burnt out because racism, because transphobia and homophobia, because like, you're neurodivergent, and literally everywhere you go has fluorescent lights, and it just takes away every part of your energy and ability to feel calm. That's going to look different if you--than what self care is going to be if you don't have any of those issues.

Harvey: 11:23

Yeah, no, definitely. And, you know, as we know, depending on the severity of your stress, those self care, you know, methods, are not necessarily going to work in the same way. You know, like I mentioned on the last episode, which you should check out if you haven't already, it was a cool episode.

Pen: 11:43

[Sing-song] INTRO to Medication.

Harvey: 11:45

[Sing-song] INTRO to Medication. Anyway, this is--this is not a karaoke podcast, because I can't sing. I keep losing my train of thought. Yeah, so on the last episode, we talked a little bit about something called the HPA axis and how, in people with depression, there's no mechanism to stop it. So in short, for folks with depression, that stress is a positive feedback loop. It just keeps going and going and going. So when you're the kind of person that has, for whatever reason, some kind of chronic stress, taking a bath with a nice bath bomb one time is maybe not going to be as helpful as it would be for a neurotypical person who can just relax for a little bit and be like, "You know what? I feel better."

Pen: 12:32

Yeah. I can tell you if you're someone who experiences executive dysfunction, which is--thank you, Harvey--And executive dysfunction, like, really, really quickly, is like, it's the--our executive functions are in their in their in the frontal lobe.

Harvey: 12:48

Yes.

Pen: 12:49

Yeah, the ones that make us as humans, the one that swiss cheesed a little bit for me, which I hate thinking about, like, image wise, but I did this to myself. Um, where there's--so our executive function is like decision making stuff like that, you know more about the brain specifically.

Harvey: 13:05

Yeah, so the frontal lobe handles things like decision making, emotion regulation, in some cases conscious motivation. Motivation is actually perhaps more governed by the limbic system, which is involved in your emotions. But--

Pen: 13:26

Not if you're not able to regulate your emotions properly.

Harvey: 13:29

Yes, that and also the frontal lobe organizes your thoughts. So the issue with executive dysfunction is that you experience really significant hits to all of those things.

Pen: 13:42

Yeah. And it's--it is a non-optional thing. It's not something you can just shut off. And it's something that a lot of different neurodivergent people deal with. I can tell you as someone with ADHD, it is a major issue for me. It's, uh, oh, God, I can't remember what episode we talked about it in, it might have been INTRO to Depression, where I use the metaphor of like, there's a brick wall between me and the thing I need to do, and I have like a toothpick to deal with it. And everyone's like, oh, just knock down the wall. And I'm like--

Harvey: 14:10

How?

Pen: 14:11

I sure would love to. That's--that's executive dysfunction, where it's like, I am literally--my brain is not giving me the tools or the capability to just make decisions.

Harvey: 14:24

Yeah, and that's something that is very typically seen in things like ADHD and autism. But something that people are less aware of is that you see executive dysfunction in a lot of different mental illnesses. This is also something that you see in depression and anxiety disorders. Any sort of--any sort of mental illness that influences the function of the frontal lobe, which is most of them, can lead to executive dysfunction, and often does. And, in my case, a lot of my executive dysfunction comes from depression. And while I'm not diagnosed with autism, I don't intend to seek out a diagnosis because there are issues with that. Because--

Pen: 15:10

Society is fundamentally ableist.

Harvey: 15:12

Yep. And I don't know if I want to deal with that. But in short, there are some traits of autism that I display. And with that comes a degree of executive dysfunctioning. So this is something that we both deal with, it makes self care so, so,

Pen: 15:29

Yeah. And I think a good example of how executive so hard.

dysfunction can look: 15:33

If you have ever been stuck in knowing that there's something that you need to do, qnd whether it's, like, you can feel yourself being really anxious, or you don't have some kind of explanation, like, you know that you need to wash the dishes and go get groceries, and work on homework. And instead of being able to just do all of those things in a to do list, you get kind of stuck on like, okay, where do I start with this? Which one do I do? Well, if I--if I do the groceries first, then I might not be able to get to the dishes, because I know I have to get the homework done by 5pm. But if I do the dishes now, then I might not have something to eat later. And if I do my homework first, then I also have that issue. And I just, I don't know how long all this is going to take, like, it could take upwards of an hour if they don't have everything ready at the grocery store. And it's just... like, you spend time that you could spend, you know, doing those tasks stuck in trying to start any of them.

Harvey: 16:32

Yeah, and actually something that I want to raise, that's actually not what executive dysfunction looks like for me, even at all.

Pen: 16:37

That makes sense. It's--it is executive dysfunction in ADHD looks a lot like that a lot of the time.

Harvey: 16:45

Yeah. And my point in that is not saying, That's not real executive dysfunction, Pen. What's wrong with you?" But--

Pen: 16:52

Yeah, like, it makes sense that it's different.

Harvey: 16:54

The way that it looks for me, and it's kind of a combination of the depression and some of the autistic traits that I have. With the depression, a lot of the time my executive dysfunction looks like, I really need to get up and brush my hair and brush my teeth, because I haven't yet today, but I just don't have the energy to get out of bed. The idea of moving right now sounds so incredibly difficult. And in the case of some of my traits of autism, a lot of the time what it looks like is, I know I need to go to the grocery store, I know I'm out of bread, I'm out of food, I just--I need something to eat, but the grocery store is going to stress me out, I'm going to feel awful in there the entire time, I'm gonna want to scream and cover my ears and run out of there, and that's not going to be an option. So in some ways, for me, it looks less like getting caught up in how long things might take and more about how they're going to make me feel.

Pen: 18:00

And that's--that's definitely something I also--that is--that is shared. I think one of the ways that I've seen it put very, very simply is, especially in the difference between executive dysfunction and procrastination, because that's something he gets talked about a lot, is if you're procrastinating, the thought process is kind of like, I know I need to do this, but I don't really want to. And if it's executive dysfunction, your thought process is, I know I need to do this, I want to get up and do this, and still having that block. It's not just deciding you'd rather do something else, it's actively knowing you should and wanting to be able to follow through on that, and then having some kind of mental block that is preventing you from just getting up and doing it.

Harvey: 18:41

Yeah, it's--and sometimes those things interact. Sometimes procrastination and executive dysfunction feed into each other--

Pen: 18:49

Yes, definitely.

Harvey: 18:50

--and to change the way that the other looks, but they are--they are different things. And the distinction is very subtle, but it's there.

Pen: 18:58

Yeah, definitely, definitely. And I think this is actually a really good way to go into some of the self care that is unique to people who experience [stammering] executive dysfunction.

Harvey: 19:11

[Sing-song] Executive dysfunction.

Pen: 19:13

Thank you. And some similar things, especially with what you said about going to the grocery store and knowing, like, this is going to feel really, really bad. I have sensory processing issues, which is very much an ADHD thing. Which I've, like--I have known that my sensory processing issues are related to my ADHD but there's very little research about it. Sound something [crosstalk] yeah, I now, I'm mad about it. So I fou d on ADDitude, the magazine, hat has--they have, like, a new symptom checker, and I went thr ugh it because I like to and it had something like, "Oh, yeah Sensory Processing Disorder (SP) is, like, really common an ADHD adults," and I posted that in the Discord that we sha e, just all caps, VINDICATION!

Harvey: 19:53

Vindication!

Pen: 19:54

But, like, my self care nd related to that is like, I ill wear headphones every time go to the store, or even just t home and things because locking out that sound is--and ust, like playing something hat's quieter that I know eally well is so, so helpful, nd releases a lot of the ension of like, I'm just very tressed in this environment. nd there's nothing I can do to he stress not exist. But, like, earing headphones, or playing y little color puzzle game, I ove Hue, or using the stim utty. That kind of stuff, where t's just distracting my senses nd giving me something else. hat is major for me.

Harvey: 20:37

Yeah, and this is actually raising a thought. Um, you know, we have the--sort of the--the very mainstream and typical view of self care, and then we also have the other extreme. And--and something I've seen, is that the--

Pen: 20:55

What's--what's the other extreme?

Harvey: 20:56

Well, I'm about to explain.

Pen: 20:57

Oh, okay, cool.

Harvey: 20:58

Something I have noticed is that views of self care tend to be, like, kind of bipolar. And I mean, that not in the, like, I'm appropriating the term bipolar disorder, but in--

Pen: 21:10

Genuinely, like--

Harvey: 21:11

--in the literal sense of the word.

Pen: 21:12

Dichotomous.

Harvey: 21:13

Dicho--that's probably a better word. It's a dichotomy. Um, so there's the one end where it's like, bath bombs, and go pet a therapy dog. And then there's also, self care means getting your stuff done, just get up and do it, and like--and that is something that I see. And it's often said by other neurodivergent people, to other neurodivergent people.

Pen: 21:36

There's a level of gatekeeping--

Harvey: 21:38

Yes!

Pen: 21:40

--in, like, neurodivergent circles on what is and is not allowed to be self care. That is, like, just fundamentally missing the intrinsic point in what we're talking about, which is self care has to look different for everyone who is experiencing different kinds of stress.

Harvey: 21:56

Yes. And there's also the thing to keep in mind and, like, I get it. With the kind of neuro divergence I have, I get that black and white thinking is easy, and that thinking in gray areas sucks. But we have to keep in mind with--with--with self care, particularly for neurodivergent people, that just doing nice things for yourself, and also being productive, can and have to coexist.

Pen: 22:23

Yeah. I--when we would talk about self care and staff meetings, and like, "What's a thing that you do for self care?" I would pretty consistently bring up like, I do the dishes, because I feel really good getting something done. And I can also like, listen to a podcast while I do it. And so at the end state, it's like, oh, wow, I did something productive, and it doesn't take a lot of time. Like, that is a major part of my self care. And its productivity. It's not just like, sitting down and watching Avatar: the Last Airbender, though that's also self care.

Harvey: 22:54

Yeah, um, I think sort of what this boils down to, in my mind, is that self care is really, really based on, A) what you need in the moment, and B) what you will need later.

Pen: 23:07

Yeah, that's--that's a very good way to put it.

Harvey: 23:09

So you know, let's say, you know, I'm feeling depressed. One form of self care could be to lay in bed for a little while and watch my favorite TV show, because I feel like garbage, and I want to find something that will make me feel a little bit better. Because if I'm so depressed to the point that I can't get out of bed, it's not functional for me to just stay in that state.

Pen: 23:36

Yeah. And like beat yourself up about being in that situation.

Harvey: 23:39

So, step one is dig yourself out of the hole. And then what that could also look like is, you know, for those of you who experience depression, or any other, like, similar things, you may know that personal hygiene is really, really difficult to keep track of. This is embarrassing to admit, but I think it's important that I admit it, because I think people need to hear this. I regularly have trouble finding the motivation to brush my teeth and shower. Practicing personal hygiene is so difficult when you're depressed, and also when you have some traits of autism, because showering is sensory garbage. But in any case, you know, what this also may mean is that self care also has to mean for me sometimes, okay, I'm going to let myself sit here and watch this thing until three o'clock, and then the three o'clock, I'm going to get up and I'm going to brush my teeth. And then once I brush my teeth, I can sit back down. But that's also keeping in mind that, like, I need to keep maintaining my health, so sometimes I do need to do moderately unpleasant things, but I know it's gonna help me in the future. Some of what it could also look like is making tasks easier for you. I usually keep--ueah, and definitely, like, I'll share a quick thing, then I can hand it over to you.

Pen: 25:01

I have a lot of things to say about it.

Harvey: 25:03

But something that I do, I usually keep my meds in the bathroom, but sometimes I am just tired at the end of the night or I'm experiencing executive dysfunction. So sometimes if I know I'm not having a great day, I will move my meds into my bedroom, so that they will be easier to take later.

Pen: 25:21

Yeah. It's--like, that is--that is a huge facet of self care that I have, like, learned over the years is that you can just change up how you do things, and that's okay. Because we're given like a very specific idea of how you're supposed to do things. Society is functionally ableist again. Fundamentally ableist.

Harvey: 25:41

We can get into that another time.

Pen: 25:43

Oh, we can talk more about it another time. But like, so the idea is, if you are going to shower, you're supposed to do it like lights on and make sure you do, like, the shampoo, conditioner, all of that stuff. And that's like one example. Or if you are making food, you have to make sure that you're going to, like, make all of it. Like, making a sandwich requires, you know, doing the bread and the spread, and like putting the things together.

Harvey: 26:09

And make it healthy.

Pen: 26:11

Yeah, and like, different things like that, or, if you're just gonna have your medication in the bathroom, just leave it there, like there are all these things, and we tend to understand them as things that you're supposed to do. And to deviate from that means you're doing something wrong, or you aren't doing it to the best of your ability.

Harvey: 26:28

But also, who cares if your meds are in the bathroom or not.

Pen: 26:31

Like, that's the thing is that is a lie, and can really change your whole life if you are able to, like, do those adjustments. Like, the reason I use those specific examples is that I've seen like Tumblr posts. I saw one of them ages ago, and it was huge for me, where someone was, like, talking to their therapist, like, "God, yeah, sometimes I just don't even have the motivation to make a sandwich, and I know I need to eat," and the therapist was like, "You could just eat like, the components of it. You don't have to put it together," And they were like, "What?"

Harvey: 27:01

Like, you can just eat a slice of bread and eat some ham.

Pen: 27:03

The therapist was like,"You can just grab, like, a fistful of lunch meat and eat it," and it was like, oh, and genuinely that sounds like kind of a smaller, strange thing. That can unblock it. I know for, like, especially like my ADHD, it's like, wait, I can just change it? And someone talking about, like, they hated showering, and then found out that by turning off the lights, they removed one of the sensory things, and it made it so much easier. Someone talking about how they always hated brushing their teeth. Turns out, they hated the flavor of mint, and if they switch to little kid, like, bubblegum toothpaste, it was so much easier, but it felt like something they weren't supposed to do or allowed to do.

Harvey: 27:43

Yeah, and that's actually what my boyfriend does.

Pen: 27:45

Awesome!

Harvey: 27:45

Hates the taste of mint, so he just buys kids' toothpaste so that he doesn't hate it.

Pen: 27:50

Yeah, and that's like, that can change so much. Like, that is a level of self care that both, like, just makes test easier for you, and includes accepting parts of yourself, and not shaming yourself for existing in the way you just happen to exist. You don't have to try and force yourself to change to meet this objective standard. You can accept the way that you are, and that sometimes your brain just works differently, and that's okay. Taking care of yourself sometimes means maybe being what people don't expect from you.

Harvey: 28:26

Yeah, and, you know, we can definitely get more into this concept when we talk--if and when we talk about like ethics, or if we talk about therapy again. But, you know, I think there is a view of therapy that it's supposed to get you to function typically. Um, and that really depends on the person. Um, the--kind of--the end, all be all of therapy, a good therapist will tell you that, you know, the goal of therapy is to get your client to their goal. And if their goal means I want to function as typically as possible, then you try to get them there. Sometimes therapy is just, I don't think I'll ever function typically, but I want to function better than I do right now. So, all of this to say, the idea that we have to get everyone to function typically is not necessarily true. Sometimes the most functional thing for a person to do is to just modify their surroundings to be ideal for them. And I would love to get rid of the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" ideal because, look, no amount of pulling those bootstraps, no matter how big those lace up boots are, your brain ain't gonna produce enough serotonin if it doesn't. You know?

Pen: 29:45

Like there are--there are parts of my brain, especially, like, my frontal lobe, that just don't work. That's like--genetically, it's just been like that my whole life. It's gonna keep being like that my whole life. I can't just think really hard and make new neurotransmitters.

Harvey: 30:05

Yeah, it's--it's okay to make compromises for yourself.

Pen: 30:09

It's--I think, sometimes, there's internal biases, both in the therapist and in the patient, the idea that you're supposed to function like a neurotypical person does.

Harvey: 30:17

And, no.

Pen: 30:18

And, like, I didn't realize that it was okay to change things up. I realized, like, this past summer that I can just wear headphones at home, and that's okay. And it was like, it was when I was playing Magic[the Gathering] with my roommate, Abbie. And I was like,"I'm kind of overwhelmed," and she was like, "You can just put headphones on and, like, point to the cards that you're gonna use," And I was like, "What? Oh, my God." And I did, and just suddenly, I was fine.

Harvey: 30:44

Yeah, and sometimes it like--I have a lot of mental blocks with practicing self care. But, you know, sometimes it, just, does occur to me, like, I can just lay in bed for, like, 10 minutes with my blankets over my head until I don't have a migraine anymore. Like, that's fine. Nobody's--nobody's gonna stop me from doing that.

Pen: 31:05

Yeah, it's--it's so important, and still so hard sometimes. There's, oh, there's one thing I want to briefly say in terms of, like, specific suggestions about self care that just don't work sometimes, and I talked--I complained about medication--not medication, meditation--very briefly at the top of the episode, because I have had--Charlie, love him--but my first therapist, Charlie.

Harvey: 31:35

Tummy man.

Pen: 31:36

Tummy man. He sat me down one session was like, let's try meditation. And we just sat in, like, the kind of dark room--likedthat it was dark--on, like, a pillow. And he was like, this was when he said tummy, like, "Breathe through your tummy," And I was like, "Okay." And I sat there, and I just was kind of stressed out, because I felt like I wasn't doing it right. And that kept being how I felt about meditation for, like, ages. And then last year, in our Women and Gender Studies class, I found a website that talked about other ways to do meditation. And one of them was like, "Yeah, if you're just focusing on one thing, and one thing only, that's meditation. You can like paint, or draw, or do really anything, so long as you're just focusing on that. That's what meditation is." And it--it was so huge for me, I was like, "Oh, my God, really? That's... oh!"

Harvey: 32:28

Playing Minecraft is self care!

Pen: 32:32

If you're just focusing your mind on the one thing, that's functionally what it is. And it was like, :Oh, my God, I can do that. I can do that. And that does help. I already do that. I've been painting this whole summer. Oh, my God!"

Harvey: 32:44

Yeah, and mindfulness meditation is just one way to do it. And for some people, mindfulness meditation is really, really helpful. It is for me sometimes. Typically, mindfulness meditation is really only useful if I'm actively dissociating. But it can be.

Pen: 33:02

Tthat's the like, just like--like, focusing on individual body parts or your own thoughts and that kind of thing. For mindfulness meditation. And I think I've--there are some aspects of it that can be useful for me. If you tell me to sit in silence, I will get stressed out. I--I mean, first of all, I don't have silence. I have tinnitus. And have since I was born, pretty sure that's a sensory processing thing, but whatever. There's not research on that either. But, like, you can change how you do things, and that doesn't mean you're, like, making a mistake--almost cussed--it means that you are taking care of yourself. That can look a lot of--Oh! I knew I was forgetting something! What you said earlier about self care being in the moment, and also in the future. A way that I have motivated myself to do things for a long time that works sometimes and not others is, I know I'm going to feel better and proud of myself and happy if I do this thing now. And that can help so much. Like okay, I don't want to do the dishes, or I don't want to do my homework right now. I don't have to do homework anymore.

Harvey: 34:16

I wish that were me.

Pen: 34:17

I respect you. Hey, you're on break!

Harvey: 34:18

That's true.

Pen: 34:19

Um, and be like, "I don't want to. That's hard," and then have a thought like, "Once I've done this, I'm going to be proud of myself." And knowing that that's true, because it's happened before and thinking like, "Oh, I want to feel like that. I want--I want to feel proud of myself." And that being, like, enough of a motivation. Like my future self feeling like I did a good job, instead of shaming myself for not doing it fast enough.

Harvey: 34:44

Yeah. Yeah, that's--that is a good point. So we should start wrapping up soon. So I want to ask you, Pen, last thoughts on self care.

Pen: 34:55

There's not a wrong way to care about yourself. And self care is essentially dealing with your stress in a way that helps you out and lets you process it or just come down from it. That's going to look different depending on who you are, what your brain is like, if you're neurodivergent, or just a minority in another way. Or if you aren'tm like, sometimes the mainstream self care just works for people, and that's okay, unless it's racist, in which case, it's not. But whatever you need to do for that, it's not wrong. It's okay to try things out. It's okay to not be sure what self care looks like. You get to just experiment, and I think the biggest part of it comes from literally just caring about yourself enough to be making these efforts.

Harvey: 35:48

Yeah. My thoughts are very similar. And also something that I want to raise--or, a couple things that I want to raise. The--the guidelines that are out there on social media, and out in the world, and in the wild. Lions doing face masks. You know, those are just guidelines. If that's something that you want to try, great, do it. If it's not something that you want to do, if it's not something that you think will help, don't do it. The other thought I want to bring up: typical functioning is not--does not have to be your end goal. If it's your end goal, that's, that's okay. That's--that's all up to you. But you don't have to function like a neurotypical person to be productive or to be deserving of respect.

Pen: 36:46

Or to be happy.

Harvey: 36:47

Yeah, just--you get to set what that goal is. You get to set the goalposts for yourself. No one gets to do that for you. And then the last suggestion I have: if you're trying to devise a plan for self care, something that I found is really helpful is thinking through--sometimes even writing down, I don't write it down most of the time, but sometimes--thinking through what's bothering you, what bothers you about it, and then sort of going, alright, how can I mitigate this? Sort of in the sense of, like, I hate taking my meds. I don't like getting out of bed and going to my bathroom to take them. I can just move my meds into my bedroom. Problem solved. So those are--those are my closing thoughts.

Pen: 37:31

Yeah. And one more that I wanted to say is, I think sometimes, like, self care can be, like, such a... like, a big word, a big term, like, "Oh, so this is super important. And what all is that? I need to figure out these specific things." I think a great place to start, if you're not sure what self care is gonna look like for you, think about the things that just make you happy, that make you feel kind of calm. If that's like going for a walk in the mornings, if that's playing Minecraft. Whatever it is, that is a great place to start and might be a way you've been unconsciously doing self care this whole time.

Harvey: 38:07

Yeah, absolutely. So hey, stick around for the next few moments and we will tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is run, and a special new announcement.

Pen: 38:17

We have a Patreon. That's the announcement.

Harvey: 38:21

Beyond Introspection is an independently run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at b-y-n-d podcast, or you can email us at beyonddotpodcast@gmail.com. That's beyond d-o-t podcast, no spaces. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description.

Pen: 38:46

We also have a Patreon. You can find us at patreon.com/beyondintrospection. That's all one word. We also have links to it on our site and on our social media. Our podcast is entirely independent, so we pay for hosting fees and transcript service subscriptions out of pocket. This is a passion project that we're really happy to do, and any support you're able to give us would really make a difference. On our

Patreon there are four tiers: 39:06

$2, which gets you access to test audio and other bloopers;$5 which will give you access to bonus episodes that we'll make in the future, on topics like how angry we are Freud, our frustrations with our respective fields of studies, and even guest episodes; $10 will get you a direct line and priority access to request episode topics and new bonus content; and $15 which will give you access to monthly AMAs--that's ask me anything for those who don't know--where we can answer questions ranging from the podcast process, how we figure out what to record more in-depth questions about our neurodivergences and more. All of those tiers will include benefits from lower tiers of course. And also, just to note, unlike our regular episodes, Patreon bonus content is likely to include swearing, so if that's not your vibe, please know that ahead of time. We'd also love it if you're able to share this podcast with people you know. Our only advertising is word of mouth, and we want to reach as many people as possible.

Harvey: 40:02

Got feedback for us? Want to request an episode topic? Just feel like saying hello? Feel free to reach out on social media or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.