Harvey and Pen discuss what it's like to mask symptoms of mental illness and neurodivergence, why people do it, and possible benefits and drawbacks.
Warning for some discussion of intense depression and references to self-harm.
Featuring: Pen got cut open; What actually is masking?; Yikes, depression can get bad; No but for real, Harvey's autistic; Does It Serve You?; Sometimes you're different and you don't feel like dealing with it; You can't actually know what's going on in someone else's head, I promise; And ill-advised X-Men reference
Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
USA Suicide Prevention:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
International Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines
Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/
Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:
https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte
Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:
https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/
https://stopaapihate.org/
Resources for US Immigrants:
https://www.informedimmigrant.com/
Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:
Harvey and Pen discuss what it's like to mask symptoms of mental illness and neurodivergence, why people do it, and possible benefits and drawbacks.
Warning for some discussion of intense depression and references to self-harm.
Featuring: Pen got cut open; What actually is masking?; Yikes, depression can get bad; No but for real, Harvey's autistic; Does It Serve You?; Sometimes you're different and you don't feel like dealing with it; You can't actually know what's going on in someone else's head, I promise; And ill-advised X-Men reference
Suicide Hotline & Resources for Trans People:
USA Suicide Prevention:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
International Suicide Hotlines:
https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines
Suicide Hotline & Resources for LGBTQ+ Young People:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/
Ways to support Black Lives Matter and find anti-racism resources:
https://linktr.ee/blacklivesmatte
Resources to support AAPI (Asian-American & Pacific Islander) communities:
https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/
https://stopaapihate.org/
Resources for US Immigrants:
https://www.informedimmigrant.com/
Resources to Support Undocumented Immigrants in the US:
Hello everybody, and welcome to Beyond Introspection: A podcast about mental health, neurodivergence, and how it impacts literally every aspect of your life.
Harvey:All of them.
Pen:I'm Pen.
Harvey:And I'm Harvey.
Pen:And we're sorry about the delay.
Harvey:We're back from the dead!
Pen:We're back from... Harvey's back from the dead, and I'm back from surgery.
Harvey:I went to Hell and came back.
Pen:I went to the University of Illinois Hospital and came back.
Harvey:You did! Do you want to share why?
Pen:Yeah, I got top surgery.
Harvey:Woo!
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:Yay!
Pen:My chest is - is flat now, and I have incisions in it. Stitches, even.
Harvey:Wow. Do you have the internal ones that are going to dissolve?
Pen:Yeah, I think that they have dissolved, or are at least working on it, ecause there's, like, that weird feeling.
Harvey:Right, the popping.
Pen:Yeah, like the - ooh... - nurse said like - like kind of a snap, crackle, pop on the inside, and like, it's not inaccurate, but... Horrid. It's weird, like... [popping]
Harvey:Doesn't mean that you have to like it.
Pen:No. But it's kind of stopped now, so I think that they have dissolved.
Harvey:That is good. Congrats on the top surgery, Pen!
Pen:Yeah, yeah. I wasn't super up for recording during our usual weekend, because it was only a few days after I'd been cut open. I was doing like, okay, but, you know, trying to limit the things that I did.
Harvey:And so I said, we don't have to record. And you said, okay.
Pen:Okay.
Harvey:Okay. And then we didn't.
Pen:Yes.
Harvey:And then we didn't end up recording at all last month, so now we're here. And I died and went to Hell and came back.
Pen:And these are the things that have happened to us recently.
Harvey:This is completely true.
Pen:And why we... why this is delayed. So we appreciate everyone's patience, especially as we move to this monthly schedule, and sometimes life comes up.
Harvey:Yeah, like we've said many episodes before, if we forced ourselves to record when we're not able to, well, we'd be defeating the entire point of the podcast, sooo...
Pen:Yeah, that would not be great.
Harvey:But getting back into the swing of things, Pen.
Pen:Harvey.
Harvey:Tell me...
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:...about your wahoo moment... oh, excuse me[clearing throat] Wahoo! Moment of the Week.
Pen:I love you so much. I'm in love with you. You're amazing. You - you are my best friend and I love you.
Harvey:I did not actually kiss pen just did a little... a little... air kiss.
Pen:Yeah, we're staring at each other. Well, we're not anymore, because Harvey's like, "Don't look at me."
Harvey:I'm so autistic, and so hot.
Pen:Yeah, buddy, you are! So yeah, yeah. Wahoo! Moment of the Week. Oh! I've been playing Disco Elysium
Harvey:Oh, yeah. Your latest hyperfixation.
Pen:My latest hyper fixation. Emily observed, she's really good at recommending me video games. She got me into Breath of the Wild, Hades, and now Disco Elysium.
Harvey:I didn't know Emily got you into Hades.
Pen:Yeah, she was the one who showed me the trailer for it, and I was like, mm, this does look pretty good, though. And then I played it. And I was like, okay, here's my life now. This is... I'm actually wearing a Hades t-shirt.
Harvey:You are, and it's a very nice t-shirt.
Pen:Thank you. I like it. Anyway, Disco Elysium is a game that's on, like, a lot of platforms, actually. It's even on that weird, like... Google has a game system.
Harvey:It does?!
Pen:Trevon has it.
Harvey:Ha. Google boy.
Pen:Google boy. It's also on, like, the App Store and stuff. It's on, like, everything.
Harvey:Really?
Pen:Which is super cool.
Harvey:I mean, it is kind of a visual novel, isn't it?
Pen:Basically. And we love it when indie games, especially from non-US folks, because actually, the creators are Eastern European.
Harvey:Oh! Do you know what country they're from?
Pen:Oh, God, I read it this morning and then forgot. But it also puts into context a lot of the stuff.
Harvey:Yeah, no, that - that definitely makes sense. And you've been sending me fan art of one of the characters because he's very much my type.
Pen:Yes.
Harvey:He's so hot. And for what?
Pen:Estonian! They're Estonian.
Harvey:Oh, okay. All right. Yeah. Vibes.
Pen:It's a - it's an absolutely incredible game. It's kind of a... not open-world... open-ended RPG...
Harvey:Okay.
Pen:...is the way that I would put it.
Harvey:Kind of a choose your own adventure vibe?
Pen:Kind of, yeah, that is about a detective who has forgotten literally everything after a week long... well, not week long, quite a bender with drugs and alcohol. Now, it's incredible. It's one of the best written things that I think I've engaged with. And also, if you are triggered by alcoholism, drug abuse, and mentions of suicide or suicide threats, don't play this game.
Harvey:Or exercise extreme caution.
Pen:Like very, very, very much good - if I played this a few years ago, it would have caused a relapse, and that's just... like, that's reality. And also, like, even if you can get past those, it has some very realistic depictions of, like, racism and sort of normalized societal, just bigotry in general. So you know, be conscious of that.
Harvey:Definitely.
Pen:Take care, but if you - if you can handle all of those things, and you enjoy RPG-type things, and also, you know, psychological stuff, examining yourself, examining others, really stunning bits of philosophy, and also reading a lot. Like, a lot. Like, a lot of reading.
Harvey:It's a lot of reading.
Pen:Then I genuinely can't recommend it enough. It's incredible.
Harvey:Yeah. Awesome!
Pen:And I'm hyperfixating because I have ADHD.
Harvey:You do, and I love you.
Pen:It's incurable.
Harvey:That's okay.
Pen:Which is true. Anyway, Harvey.
Harvey:Yeah!
Pen:What's your Wahoo! Moment of the Week?
Harvey:I am endlessly charmed by the way you say it in particular.
Pen:Yay!
Harvey:Um, gosh. I mean, I feel like I say this a lot during episodes, I've just not been having - bro, I am - straight up? - not having a good time. That's an old Vine reference. But yeah, I've been... I've been going through it. If I'm looking on the bright side of things, though, this isn't new, necessarily, but I have a really great therapist who has been helping me work through, like, a lot of things.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:And it was - you know, she's... I initially started seeing her as an intern, but she actually just finished school, and she's set to be licensed pretty soon.
Pen:Awesome!
Harvey:And I still get to pay the intern rate for her.
Pen:Yay!
Harvey:So that was - she decided to stay on with the agency that I found her through, and that was part of her contract, that she would keep her current caseload at the current price. And I'm like, thank God, you're the best therapist I've ever had. If I had to leave you I would probably sob.
Pen:She has sounded great when you've talked about her.
Harvey:Yeah, no, Jenaleigh is great. Love her. Yeah. So I think that's mine, more of an ongoing thing, but I have a really great therapist.
Pen:I think ongoing Wahoos are- are excellent things.
Harvey:Especially when you have situations like the one I'm in right now, where I'm just not doing good...
Pen:Not...
Harvey:...much at all.
Pen:...having good time.
Harvey & Pen:[Sing-song] Not having a good time.
Pen:Queen. That's a Queen.
Harvey:Beyond Introspection karaoke night.
Pen:Oh, God. I'll tell you what we'd sing, and it's Panic! at the Disco.
Harvey:I don't think I would, because I think I would fry my vocal cords. I do not have anything close to Brendon Urie's range.
Pen:Oh, neither do I. I just think that's - that's... if we intersect our music tastes, we end up singing Panic! at the Disco.
Harvey:Yeah, if we had to pick one. That or, like, Regina Spektor, maybe.
Pen:Ooh, we could do Regina Spektor.
Harvey:We could. Any...
Pen:A couple of Mitski songs.
Harvey:Yeah, a handful. Me and my Husband, uh...
Pen:Do you like - do you like Strawberry Blond?
Harvey:I have feelings about it, but I do think it's a really great song.
Pen:I like it. It's so wild.
Harvey:Mm-hmm.
Pen: Mitski:Unhinged.
Harvey:Oh! You know what? Secondary Wahoo! Moment: in the middle of March I saw Mitski live and I lost my mind. It was so good.
Pen:Their marbles are still scattered all over.
Harvey:Just a little bit.
Pen:Mitski fan first, person second.
Harvey:Shut up!
Pen:That day. That was I was approaching it. I messaged you on Discord to talk about a potential future topic, and I was like, "So I know you're like Mitski fan first, person second today, so don't worry about responding..."
Harvey:And I responded, like, right away.
Pen:You did. You hadn't left.
Harvey:In any case...
Pen:Yeah, yeah, topic today.
Harvey:We're talking about masking.
Pen:Not COVID.
Harvey:No, that one...
Pen:Just occurred to me.
Harvey:That one is a no nuance. If you live in an area with high COVID transmission, you should wear a mask when you're in public.
Pen:Yeah, that's... it - that's the way to prevent transmission of disease, and we live in a society, and have obligations because we live in a society to care for one another. Otherwise, society doesn't work.
Harvey:And that's the episode. Thank you very much. Stick around-
Pen:We are - we evolved to be social beings.
Harvey:We did.
Pen:That's the end of the...
Harvey:No, there's the... there's the kind of - this is a different kind of masking. It has to do with neurodivergence. And you know, Pen?
Pen:Yeah, Harvey?
Harvey:[Laughter] Oh, God, that sounded so fake. It did. It really did. You ever had a moment where someone's told you, like, um, like a mental illness, or a neurodivergence, or just something they're dealing with, and maybe you didn't have the conscious thought of, like, "Oh, wait, but that doesn't sound like you." But maybe you've had the moment of, "Oh, really? I would have never have guessed." Like, because I know I've had those moments.
Pen:You know, probably, yeah, I think I have had those moments. Nothing specific comes to mind on it, but, yeah. I mean - yeah, I have actually, yes, yes. I have had a couple of moments of- of someone being like, "Hey, I have ADHD," or, you know, I've got intense anxiety, and I've been like, "Really? Huh!"
Harvey:Yeah, no, and, like, even with me being neurodivergent and mentally ill, and have - and having the reaction of, like, "What? You? Autistic? I would have no idea!" Like, I've definitely done that. Like, I think that's a very natural sort of human reaction based on the society that we've been brought up in.
Pen: Pros and cons:We live in a society.
Harvey:[Happily] We live in a society! [Sadly] We live in a society. For better or for worse.
Pen:Oh, God, that's actually really... the importance of masking in a society. The tragedy of masking in a society.
Harvey:Yeah. So, I think a major part of where that kind of gut reaction that you might have comes from is masking.
Pen:Yes.
Harvey:And masking... I think the best way to probably describe it would be any sort of measure you do consciously or subconsciously to suppress ways in which you are visibly neurodivergent or mentally ill. And I know for me, one of the major ways for that, is that, like, I don't stim in public. Just straight up.
Pen:I think, like, definitely with masking, um, and what I would, you know, really, really specify with it, is that it's about other people perceiving you, because that is... the goal of it is for people to not know.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Which is... and not necessarily to not know that the disorder or neurodivergence, like exists, in the first place, but rather, to hide some or all symptoms of it. Or, like, behavior related.
Harvey:Especially the ones that are, like, less, quote unquote,"Socially acceptable."
Pen:Yes. So... so your example of stimming, which I think, in the stimming split episode that we did 100,000 years ago, you did mention that you just don't stim in public.
Harvey:I don't, mostly because I just don't want to deal with the judgment. I don't want people to look at me. And it's not because I'm ashamed of being autistic. It's just that sometimes I don't want to deal with the questions and the staring, because it's exhausting, and it sucks.
Pen:It is... it is so incredibly different to be, like... I love being around people where I can like flap my hands, and things and they get it, and they're, like, happy for me, also.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:It's like, yeah! Pen excited!
Harvey:Hoo-ray!
Pen:And then just, like, it's a thing I can only do in certain spaces with certain people. Because otherwise, like, at best, it's going to be slightly confusing for people. And you know, at worst, they're going to be actively, like, horrid about it.
Harvey:Right. And that's the reality. That's... it's an unfortunate consequence, I think, of being neurodivergent in a society.
Pen:There are a lot of there's so much stigma attached to neurodivergent. And especially expression of it. And, you know, it really, really ranges, too, because there is a lot, a lot, a lot of stigma attached to visible expressions of being autistic.
Harvey:Oh, God, yes.
Pen:There is, in a different way, and I would say, to a lesser extent, a lot of stigma attached to visible expressions of ADHD symptoms.
Harvey:Yeah, I would say it's... it's less to an extent, but not... it's certainly not negligible.
Pen:Oh, no, it very much exists. And the stereotypes about it are so harmful.
Harvey:So damaging.
Pen:And play a lot into psychiatrists and their likelihood of diagnosis. Anyway.
Harvey:And why AFAB people don't get diagnosed with ADHD often enough.
Pen:Yeah, for sure. Yeah, sometimes the reason that people are like, "Wow, I wouldn't have guessed that you have 'x,'" is because of masking or a general misunderstanding of what it is actually like, and sometimes it's just because you're AFAB.
Harvey:Yeah, sometimes it's just sexism.
Pen:Yeah, sometimes it's just straight up, like, oh, yeah, we don't talk about how things manifest differently if you are not a cis boy.
Harvey:Because typical, quote unquote, autism traits are just the ways that our girls are expected to behave in society in some ways. In being quiet, and so on and so forth. It's frustrating. And this is something that I wanted to talk about because it's actually a major part of why it took me forever to realize that I was autistic, was because I have been masking my entire life. The whole time!
Pen:It's, uh, learned behaviors.
Harvey:And yeah, I can get into this in a little bit, but - but also some of that has to do with this... this, like, in the, quote unquote, treatment of neurodivergence, sort of the, what's the word I'm looking for> Like, this, this push toward normalcy, Like, not necessarily embracing difference, but trying to squash it, I suppose is the best way to phrase it.
Pen:How do you act the most acceptable?
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Which, at its... at the best intentions, it comes from,"Oh, well, we don't want this person to be like... we don't want our kids to be made fun of or made to feel different,"
Harvey:Which, like, okay, that's legit.
Pen:It is. And it's also a fundamental misunderstanding of if you're telling a child to suppress their natural behaviors, maybe they won't get made fun of by kids at school, but you're telling them to suppress their natural behaviors.
Harvey:It's kind of like... to use a probably pretty extreme analogy, are there ways in which you can prevent - you can, like, lower your risk, potentially, of being sexually assaulted? Sure, that's also not on you, and it shouldn't be.
Pen:Yeah, like... if you are reducing something for the sake of bullying, that is... I mean, I can appreciate that. Also, one, the problem isn't your kid, the problem is the people who are going to bully them. And I know that that is not something that you can necessarily fix. I think the solution, really should generally be seen more as how do I help my child's self-confidence?
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:What can I do to make them feel secure in themselves so that the people who are going to be awful sometimes throughout their whole life have less of a grip on them?
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Rather than telling them to not be who they are, and to view parts of them themselves that are just fundamental to their very being as wrong or undesirable?
Harvey:Yeah, and I'll tell you what, as someone who spent all of their conscious life, masking, uh, typically subconsciously, the urge to express my neurodivergence, the urge to stim, the urge to break down every time I was in a Walmart, the urge to just talk and talk and talk about all the things that I found interesting, that never went away, as much as I tried to suppress it. And frankly, the push for me to mask kind of just made me feel like a freak.
Pen:Yeah, it doesn't actually... it doesn't actually help, broad strokes. It doesn't. It can be useful, I think, in some ways, as, like... there's a difference between masking and coping skills.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:I think that that is a really, really important thing to hit on. In like, there is a distinction between... not always, like, if you are, for example, overstimulated, trying to... like, you know, hold out, when you can, until you can get to a safer place, or being, like, aware that a thing might bother you and taking appropriate precautions. And you know, sometimes not mentioning it, or bringing attention to it, because for attention to be brought to it, like, if that would increase your distress.
Harvey:And the difference is that that's sort of an internal process.
Pen:Yeah. Or like, um, finding ways to stem that are more subtle, maybe because you don't want a ton of attention to be brought to you. Like, you want to stim, but you'd like to stim quietly, just because, like, it's for you. There's a very big difference between that and hiding it out of shame, or because you just feel like you're supposed to. A lot of it comes from the intent. Is the point of this to care for yourself, or is the point of this to not be wrong, or to hide a thing that you think is unseemly? Or that you've been told makes you freakish? Like, is it about judgment from other people? Or is it about care for yourself?
Harvey:Yeah, no, that's... that's real. And I appreciate you raising that because that's... I think that could be a really muddy distinction.
Pen:There are complexities for sure, but like, a lot of it, I think, comes from the internal feeling.
Harvey:I think so, too. The... and - we were kind of talking about this before the episode, but there was... that there's... kind of your experience with masking is different in that you don't - if I'm - if I'm remembering correctly - you don't really mask your ADHD as much, but you do have a history of masking your depression.
Pen:Yes.
Harvey:Which I found interesting.
Pen:Yeah, it is. Hm, so I'm doing better now. So - dramatically, yeah, dramatically better than I used to be, which is actually... Disco Elysium has been a really cool way to realize that, because a couple of years ago, oh, it could have damaged me so much. And now, like, um, this - this past Thursday, so like, four days ago, I had a really unfortunate trauma episode that got triggered to the point where, like, I had to come home from work because I just needed to be somewhere I felt safe.
Harvey:I'm glad you came home, still.
Pen:Me, too. I played Disco Elysium and felt fine, and it touches on some really, really heavy stuff. So you know, it's... it's nice to have bits of proof of like, oh, wow, I am doing better.
Harvey:Like, hey, I can actually handle this on a bad day.
Pen:Yeah, like, oh! Cool!
Harvey:How about that?
Pen:I'm not going to drink. That's good.
Harvey:Oh, the... the... one of the most unfortunate things that Pen and I have in common is a bad relationship with alcohol.
Pen:So for a game to heavily touch on alcoholism, and for me to not feel any compulsion to drink is, like, nice. And you know, that has come with, um... like, when I learned about my ADHD, and to now, like, I have been embracing it, pretty much, and... I like talking about things I'm interested in. I'm interested in my own ADHD. Well, let's be real, I'm interested in myself, and also ADHD.
Harvey:That's a little bit on the nose.
Pen:I mean, I like to talk about myself, I can recognize these things.
Harvey:Hey, self-awareness is a great quality to have, legitimately.
Pen:Thank you. My therapists always talk about it.
Harvey:Hey, me, too. Oldest child, only child solidarity.
Pen:Yeah, my therapists be like, "Wow, you're really self
aware." Me:"Yeah, I didn't have many friends and spent a lot of time in my own head, and this is also how I figured out how to suppress literally, every part of my emotions that I thought could put me in any sort of vulnerable state."
Harvey:Whoa, look at how that slid right into masking.
Pen:Exactly! And so, that is the big difference, is right now, I'm not hiding things, because I'm doing really well, and also because sometimes I want to assert that. There are still some things that I do suppress more like, for example, responses to sensory overstimulation. Some of that is, there's not really a good way to express it, because people don't understand what it means.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:And if you're already distressed, trying to explain it does not help.
Harvey:No. Especially depending on the severity with what you... you respond to sensory overload, and whatnot.
Pen:Oh, yeah. I don't know how tell people, "Yeah, I'm wearing one headphone while I'm working the tech desk. It's, uh, for medical reasons. No, seriously. Silence freaks me out."
Harvey:So fair.
Pen:But yeah, yeah. So now, I don't mask as much. I'm sure there are ways I'm not conscious of it, and there are small things, but compared to how I used to be? Let's do circa 2016-2017.
Harvey:Sure.
Pen:Um, that was the lowest point of my life, no questions asked. 2017 was a horrible year for my mental health. I was doing really, really, really extremely badly. I'm going to not get into details of it, but I think it is useful in discussing the ways that I masked. This was at the point where I was self harming. Typically, God, at its worst, like, a few times a week.
Harvey:Oh, wow.
Pen:It wasn't... I don't think it was often daily, but it might be every other day.
Harvey:Wow.
Pen:Yeah, but never do enough to scar, so...
Harvey:Well...!
Pen:Yeah. It's a thing. Anyway. And that was, you know, part of it, too. But yeah, I was doing absolutely horribly, and I had been doing badly for, like, quite some time up to that point. But this was when my emotional instability was at its worst, no questions.
Harvey:Well, and you were starting to think at that time that you had BPD, didn't you?
Pen:Yes, at that point, I did think that. This is... like, it was the depression. That was it. And that was, of course, now, I know, related to the emotional instability that's just a part of ADHD. Didn't know that at the time. Complicated.
Harvey:Well, and one of the things that doesn't get talked about with ADHD - or, excuse me, depression, as much as it should, is that depression, when it gets severe enough, can actually present with psychotic symptoms. Like, some people genuinely become so depressed that they go into periods of psychosis. And that, combined with ADHD, the the emotional instability, like, that - that really can look like something more quote unquote, severe.
Pen:It - It was awful, and I was not even a little bit okay.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:And I hid all of it pretty successfully, um, which is not good, obviously. But like, this is the best example I have of masking is like, you know, I was self-harming, grabbed a...[jingling] thanks, Benji.
Harvey:Thank you!
Pen:Little cat bell. Uh, small knife from the kitchen. No one noticed. That no one noticed the little, like, bits of, like. Neosporin and band aids that I would squirrel away. Wouldn't notice when I would, uh... like, at work, or during class or something, would just suddenly get hit with feeling absolutely horrible. And you know, I could always just put up a blank face, my well-maintained porcelain mask of like, "No, I'm not feeling anything." But then when it would get to be too much, and I could no longer package away in the way that I had been since I was, like, 10, I would go to the bathroom and sit in the stall, and just like... sometimes I would just sit there, still feeling empty. And sometimes I would, like, break down and sob, and then I would package it all right back up within, like, five minutes.
Harvey:Which is something that was very much a thing when we first met, that you would cry, one, silently, and two, for like, maybe three minutes at a time, and then it would just be
Pen:Yeah, it's... I - I had, like, successfully restrained over. myself in a way that was so unhealthy. Like, actually, I forgot about that. I forgot that I silently cried.
Harvey:It was one of the... it was one of the things about you that actually made me the most concerned when we first met. It was something I had never encountered before.
Pen:I... it was a thing that I, like, actively learned how to do. And it was a combination of not wanting anyone to know, and like, being able to break down just about anywhere, so long as I could get a couple of minutes of si - of, uh, alone time.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:And also not wanting to be inconvenient. These things were tied.
Harvey:That's so difficult.
Pen:Yeah, it was - it was a thing where I was, like, so certain that any expression of emotion near another person would be the thing I was doing wrong.
Harvey:Mm...
Pen:Yeah, so I didn't share, like, you know, any of that with anyone. Or if - even if I did share it with some people, I was still, like, masking in the majority of my life. It's the kind of thing - there's so much that a person can hide. And I hid a lot.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:And it didn't mean that people didn't know, I think. Like, I'm sure... I'm sure there were people in my life that knew I wasn't doing great, but I don't think anybody had the whole picture.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:I like to think... I have to hope that nobody really had a good - good full picture of it, because if they did, then then I would have hoped that they would do something, because I was, again, not to get too detailed, a massive suicide risk.
Harvey:Yeah, that's... that's real.
Pen:And I hid it!
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:None of that was for self-care and self-love.
Harvey:No.
Pen:The masking was actively also harmful. A person should not be able to... like, there's nothing healthy about packaging your emotions away so that you can designate five minutes out to go have a breakdown in the bathroom, and then put on your mask and go right back on with the rest of your day.
Harvey:Yeah, and that's, I think, a very clear example of how masking can be harmful. I don't think masking is exclusively harmful, especially if you're doing it intentionally in a way to protect yourself. I'm going to channel my therapist a little bit here, and- and say something that she would probably say. And I think if she was talking to you, she'd probably say something along the lines of: in certain ways, masking your ADHD in public serves you in that people don't always see it, and you can control when people see it to an extent, so you can decide who knows and who doesn't. In the case of your depression, on the other hand, that decidedly was not serving you in the sense that you were miserable, and it sounds like you wanted help.
Pen:Oh, yeah. Like, there are so many just classic cries for help right in there. And I was doing it as quietly as I could, because I also didn't believe that I would get help.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:I had, like, nothing. I was, uh... Yeah, it was... It was awful, and it was also, in some ways, just, like, sort of classic stereotypes in some parts of it, which is fine with me. But I don't think people fully understand what the stereotypes actually look like sometimes.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:Like, if I could go up to a bathroom and use a Walmart razor head, and then come right back down and no one suspected thing- uh, yeah, people can do that. Hey, folks? That is sometimes what depression just looks like.
Harvey:And to me, that's the scariest thing about it. Not the potential suicidality, not the presentation with psychosis, it's how quiet...
Pen:Yep.
Harvey:...depression can be.
Pen:Exactly. Like, "Wow, I never would have guessed you're depressed!" Think about that. Because depression is never a pretty thing. Depression is never a manageable thing, just kind of... it's overwhelming and horrible, and messes with every part of you. So if someone says,"Yeah, I'm depressed," and you think, "I never would have known," that's a bad sign.
Harvey:It's a... it's a sign that they are being as quiet about it as they, really, they can be.
Pen:And there's no way to be quiet about depression and have it be healthy.
Harvey:Decidedly not. And whereas with, if you don't mind me talking a little [audio cuts out]
Pen:...don't really want to relive more of that, though.
Harvey:Sure. You sure you don't need a break?
Pen:Yeah. I'm good. I'm just like...
Harvey:Okay.
Pen:And scene!
Harvey:It definitely looks different from a neurodivergent perspective. Because for me, masking was something that I did as a child, mostly unintentionally. Or, not unintentionally, but I wasn't really aware of what I was doing, I think is the way that I would phrase that. Because, let me think, I... basically, where sort of my - my - my journey, you could say, with autism starts, is when I'm a kid. I saw a...
Pen:AAAB...
Harvey:What?
Pen:AAAB. Assigned autism at birth.
Harvey:[Laughter] Nice. That's pretty good. When I was a child, I was seeing a child psychologist, because I - actually, I started ripping my hair out when I was a kid, because my parents talked about moving, and that stressed me out so bad that I would just rip my hair out in chunks.
Pen:Well, that's not good.
Harvey:And, uh, my parents took me to a psychologist, because they were like, "Hey, what's wrong with this one?" And that's when I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder at the age of five.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:And now I'm on Wellbutrin about it.
Pen:I like the... I like "About it," as phrasing.
Harvey:Thank you, thank you. I need to be funny every second of the day.
Pen:Yep.
Harvey:And, you know, so I would be seeing this - I'd be seeing this doctor, and I didn't- it was, like, play therapy, which is very common with children, so I thought I was just playing with this strange adult for an hour every week, and I didn't really know what was going on, but Dr. Wren seemed nice, and she played dolls with me, so like, cool.
Pen:Yeah, dope.
Harvey:Yeah. And I found out from my dad years later that, um, she wanted me evaluated for autism. And that's when I was pulled out of therapy and didn't go back until I was 11.
Pen:Yeah...
Harvey:I think...
Pen:Yeah... Yikesies.
Harvey:Almost entirely because my parents probably just didn't...for a lot of reasons. I mean, I get it. Like, I'm sure want me to be autistic. some of it was, like, I was, you know, "a gifted kid," which is to say, undiagnosed neurodivergence, and hyperfixation, and unhealthy relationships with academia.
Pen:Which is to say, sad. Very sad.
Harvey:Very, very sad. And I think, to my parents, not their credit, but I think, um... to kind of put some of their stuff into perspective, I think they saw... if I'm trying to get into their shoes, I think maybe they saw that I had some kind of potential, and they didn't want to shoot that in the foot. And maybe - and especially since this would have been 2005 that I would have been in therapy for - for the first time, the kind of socio- sociocultural stage for neurodivergence was very different...
Pen:Oh, extremely, yeah.
Harvey:...than it is now. And that's not to say that it's good right now, but it's a heck of a lot better than it was in 2005.
Pen:We talk about it ever, for example. In polite company.
Harvey:Exactly. So, I think in many ways an autism diagnosis then would have been way more detrimental than it would have been now. And on the same token, like, I remember - well, I actually don't remember this, but my dad tells me this, we went into - my mom wanted to see this, like, concert for a band. And it was an indoor venue, and it was huge. And I remember being - the part that I do remember is being there. And then I remember that things got really, really, really loud as the band started playing. And this is where I don't remember things, but according to my dad, I just started losing it. Like, I was - I was crying, I was starting to scream a little bit. Like, it was a meltdown. It was an autistic, sensory meltdown.
Pen:Of course it was.
Harvey:And my parents didn't really know why it was happening, and as far as I know, I think actually, my mom was mad at me for it. And - at least that's my understanding. And so my mom stays in the concert venue to continue watching, and my dad kind of takes me into this basement area, and according to him, I just laid there, catatonic, for an hour or two. And I remember just - the thing that I remember, I don't remember the events, but I remember the way it felt. And I remember just feeling so tired and confused.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:Because I was upset, and I felt, like, overwhelmed and tired, and I had no idea why. And little things like that would keep happening. I would - I would, a lot of the time, just get agitated when I was at the store with my mom, and I didn't know why. And it turned out that grocery stores, you know, years later, I finally figured out that grocery stores are just really rough for me, sensory-wise.
Pen:Of course they are. They suck.
Harvey:They're awful. I... screw grocery stores. All my homies hate grocery stores. Except Aldi.
Pen:Aldi is - there are some things that are okay, and I like that Hy-Vee is less fluorescent than Walmart.
Harvey:That's true.
Pen:But if I can not go to a grocery store, then I'm doing the correct thing.
Harvey:Yes. Oh, God, pickup orders, my beloved. But yeah, and there were those little things. And then it was always... it was the other things, too, where, like... there's this interesting thing that happens when you grow up visibly neurodivergent, even if you're trying to a- even if you're trying to mask, where people do treat you differently in an almost pitying way.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:'Cause in high school, the second high school that I went to, I had started transitioning. And I think my transition from feminine to masculine made my autistic traits, surprise, surprise, a lot more obvious, because now people were perceiving me as a boy, ostensibly, and I think at that point, the very clear symptoms of autism that I had became way more apparent, because well, that's a - that's a boys' thing. Like, you know, obviously, people don't say that, but they kind of think subconsciously, "Well, boys get autism." And I remember, there were a group of girls that I was friends with, or at least I perceived them as friends, and they did genuinely treat me very well, and I kind of connected the dots several years down the line, like I was probably two or three years out of college - er, I out of high school when I realized this, that, to an extent, they were definitely hanging around me because they were worried, because I was being pretty badly bullied, for a lot of reasons.
Pen:Oh, gee.
Harvey:And so it was a genuine- it was a genuine point of concern. But the thing is, like, and that's where masking gets tricky, because I thought... like, I think by the time I got to high school, I knew that something was different about me, but I didn't quite know what it was. And people kept telling me that there was no possible way that I could be autistic. So I was thinking, okay, I'm not autistic, then. So then what is it? So I thought I was masking, and I thought I was hiding all these things really well, and I realized, years down the line that, like, oh, no, no, I was visibly autistic, and there were people who were genuinely concerned for me. And that's tricky. And that's another complicated piece of masking. When you want to do it to an extent because you just - and I mean, this goes into internalized ableism, too where you just want people to think that you're "normal," and it doesn't work anyway. And I think that kind of shook my foundation a little bit, to... to feel like, no matter what I did, every... everyone was just gonna know that there was something up with me.
Pen:Yep.
Harvey:And... and these days, I've sort of come to accept it. I mean, frankly, being autistic is a very core part of my identity, and something that I'm... I don't know if I'm proud of it yet, but I think I'm getting there, and I want to be proud of it at some point. But it's... it's - it's things like that, where, I think in some ways, if we, you know, because your perspective is very much about how masking can be harmful, and it can be. The other side of that, when you want to mask when you, in some ways, want to assimilate, because the way that you get treated when you are visibly neurodivergent sucks.
Pen:Yep.
Harvey:And it shouldn't be that way.
Pen:But that doesn't mean that it isn't.
Harvey:Yeah, and...
Pen:...just, we can't change that part.
Harvey:The thing that is beneficial for me about masking is that it does allot me a level of agency that I don't have when I'm not masking. When I am visibly neurodivergent, people make assumptions about my level of ability. And it's true that there are some things that I am less able to do than neurotypical people. It - that is the whole reason I am disabled.
Pen:Yeah, like that's - this is what this means.
Harvey:I am legitimately disabled. There are some things that I legitimately cannot do. It's not typically the things that people think I can't do.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:If I tell people I'm autistic, a lot of the time people implicitly think that I'm stupid. And one, it's just not nice to call anybody stupid, and also, people's worth is not rooted in their intelligence.
Pen:It's wholly inaccurate to just... like, it's...
Harvey:Also I'm not stupid, I'm really smart.
Pen:And it's like, stupid is such a, um, flawed term, because like...
Harvey:It's so nebulous.
Pen:Like, what are you actually trying to get across here? Are you trying to get across that someone can't pick up on certain concepts as quickly? Because I'm gonna bet you, there are other concepts that they can pick up a bit faster, or even if they can't pick up all these concepts super quickly, what is the point you're actually trying to make?
Harvey:As a heads up, I'm going to say a slur for the sake of an
argument:Are you replacing the word retarded with stupid? Because I kind of feel like that's what people are doing.
Pen:It is. And also, like, there is such a judgment call to it. And for what?
Harvey:I'm kind of just vibing. Like, yeah, sometimes all I want to do is just sit here and rock and make my silly little humming noises, but...
Pen:That doesn't actually mean anything, folks. Not like you think it does.
Harvey:That doesn't say anything about my intelligence or my ability, it just means that that's kind of the way I self-regulate.
Pen:And that is like, I think, a fundamental misunderstanding of, uh, particularly like, people will assume that neuro divergence, mental illness, et cetera, means something other than what they do. Like, the idea that if you are autistic, then you cannot pick up on concepts as quickly. Like, you don't... that's not... that's inaccurate. Stop it?
Harvey:Well, and see, for me, that is true in certain cases, that my autism does mean that I don't pick up on things particularly well. Things fly over my head every single day. That doesn't mean that I'm unintelligent, and that doesn't mean that I can't learn.
Pen:Nor that there aren't some things that you pick up on easier than folks who... than, like, neurotypical people.
Harvey:Like, I remember things about people extremely well. Like, sensory needs? Like, the minute someone tells me something about that, I just remember,
Pen:You also understand what it means at all.
Harvey:Yeah. And that's by virtue of me being neurodivergent.
Pen:Exactly. And that is not less valuable than, um, grammar rules. In fact, in living in a society, I would say, it's a lot more valuable.
Harvey:I think, if I had to pick between not knowing grammar whatsoever, and not knowing how to - and not having any emotional intelligence, uh, guess I don't know how to use grammar.
Pen:There, their and they're? No. I will only be using the wrong one. I actually couldn't. I don't think even as, like, as a joke, maybe once or twice.
Harvey:You are - you are a little bit of the grammar police and it's - I kind of love that about you.
Pen:Well, I'm glad you love-
Harvey:Well, you're fun about it.
Pen:I try!
Harvey:You're not like one of those annoying dudes on Reddit that invalidates your argument.
Pen:Because that's not a functional way to do it, because, shocker, people don't always learn the same kinds of things.
Harvey:You just dunk on people that are - that are already being stupid, and they're like,"Well, they used the wrong there, so..."
Pen:I mean, it can be fun in some cases, and also, there's, uh, certain things, communication, et cetera. I'm Clippy and I'm unbearable.
Harvey:And that's okay! You're not unbearable. You're bearable!
Pen:No, it's a thing that can be annoying about me, and that's okay.
Harvey:That doesn't make you unbearable.
Pen:I know. It's just a silly joke.
Harvey:Oh, autism at work.
Pen:Yeah, here we go! Also, like, this is what I mean with, like, um... people assume that they know what stupid means. Y'all don't. Because you don't actually, I think, broad strokes, fully understand what you're trying to get across with that concept.
Harvey:Can we just stop calling people stupid?
Pen:Can we just not do it?
Harvey:That's just... it's just not nice.
Pen:And this is... all of this, I hesitate to use terms like this, because I'm not with the whole "differently abled" kind of thing.
Harvey:Yeah, that's fair.
Pen:That's not - I'm not... usually because... I'm not into those kinds of arguments when they come from a perspective of, like, "Oh, well, there's no... like everyone has - like, everyone's a little bit ADHD."
Harvey:No.
Pen:That kind of thing.
Harvey:I'm not.
Pen:The way that they will be, you know, linked in that kind of way of like, "Oh, it's just differently abled." Like, "No, you are normal." When it's from that perspective, like, "No, we're all just a little bit different. But like, you know, we're all really the same." And it's like, no society is fundamentally set up so neurotypical people get to exist and neurodivergent people don't.
Harvey:And that's the tricky thing. Like we have to strike this balance, I think, between substantiating that people with differences, be they race, sexual orientation, disability status, like, yes, they are, fundamentally, people. There are things that are fundamentally true of most people, and we ought to treat them like people. And also, the ways that they experience life are legitimately different. Sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad, sometimes it's neither.
Pen:Yeah. Like...
Harvey:Those have to coexist.
Pen:Exactly. The way that a neurodivergent brain works - and neurodivergent brains all work extraordinarily differently, my brain and your brain work hugely differently.
Harvey:And even like my boyfriend, Chris, the ways in which he is autistic, and the ways in which I am autistic are very different.
Pen:Yeah! Like these are all - all true things.
Harvey:Believe it or not, autism is a spectrum disorder.
Pen:So, you know, it's like, they're all different for sure, and there can be some advantages and disadvantages. We're people. We are people, and this is true. And also, it is harder to exist as a neurodivergent person. This is why disabled is a functional term.
Harvey:Yeah, and I think - I think, in some cases, differently abled makes sense to use, especially when we're talking - like, I have a lot of feelings about, like, subthreshold symptomology. And in some ways, I think if - if a person who is experiencing some symptoms of neurodivergence, but maybe doesn't quite meet that cut off, maybe they will find utility in differently abled. I don't want neurotypical people telling me that I'm differently abled, not disabled? No, no, I'm disabled.
Pen:Exactly. I think it depends heavily on the context of it, and also who's saying it.
Harvey:I think we can have both, and I think also that disability is not a dirty word.
Pen:Disability is not a dirty word, and there's nothing wrong with looking at the facts of the world. Just because you are starting to have empathy for people who are different from you, doesn't mean you have to erase the fact that there are difficulties in society for them. I understand that you've never really had a conversation with a disabled person before, and for the first time, you're actually having to see the world is different. Saying that "No, you are normal, though," isn't actually helpful.
Harvey:There's a reason that I identify as queer, and it is because I wholeheartedly resist the notion that I am normal.
Pen:Like, hey, hey? "No, but you you're you're normal. You're okay." That's not actually... that doesn't feel good.
Harvey:I don't - I don't have to be normal to be okay.
Pen:Like, yeah, I - stop trying to tell me that there's not something different about me, because I promise you, I've lived in this brain, the whole time, I've been here. I am different. And to kind of bring it back around to masking a little bit, folks, we don't know what's going on in each other's brains. Like, for real, though. I haven't met Charles Xavier, the telepath man from X Men. That's uh... it's for all those comic book people out there. I don't know why I went down this route. I don't have anything.
Harvey:No, no, please!
Pen:We don't know what's going on in each other's brains. We can only make certain assumptions. And I don't mean assumptions in a judgmental way. We make a lot of unconscious perceptions, it's how human beings work, it's a form of communication, et cetera.
Harvey:It's the only way we really know how to be.
Pen:And there's, you know, such thing as, like, knowing more, challenging some, ya-da-da. But we don't fully understand each other. You can't know for sure if someone else is neurodivergent or mentally ill just based on their behavior, because when you live in your own brain, you can figure out ways to act differently than you feel. A person can be really, horribly depressed, and you can think that they're doing fine because they're real good at hiding it. A person can be experiencing really intense sensory processing issues, and you can not notice anything except that they seem kind of quiet maybe. We... there's a reason the masking is a thing.
Harvey:Yeah. It's, in part, because we're taking agency over who knows what, and how much, frankly, danger and level of harm we're willing to put ourselves at in a given day, and sometimes it is just risk aversion.
Pen:Yep. It's... these are decisions that we make, and some of them are more conscious than others, some of them are because we're pressured to do them, and some of them, like... if it comes from fear, if it - if it comes from self love and regulation, like, there are all sorts of ways it can come from, but you really can't know what another person is doing. And, gosh, if you want to know people who are really good at masking what they are feeling, if you're not neurotypical, ooh, oh, you can get so good at it.
Harvey:Very good. For better or for worse.
Pen:Yeah. But yeah, that is... I think it is important to keep it in mind, and also, like, if you're neurotypical to - to really, like, try to internalize that, that you don't know what
Harvey:Yeah. it looks like. Not exactly. And that's okay. And it also means, like, the judgment calls you make positive, negative, whatever, are going to be fundamentally inaccurate, and you should challenge them. And if you are neurodivergent, and you are masking, and mentally ill and masking, I really encourage you to think about why. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying, as much as you're able, do it out of self care.
Pen:Out of self love, and not to suppress yourself.
Harvey:I think, kind of to... again, to channel my therapist, mask if it serves you. And it can serve you in a lot of ways. It can keep you safe, and also, sometimes maybe you just - maybe some days, that's just what feels right. But yeah, kind of to echo Pen's point, like, just... you don't have to be normal, but that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you.
Pen:Like, we're never gonna be normal, folks. We can't get rid of these things. I joked earlier about ADHD being incurable. It's a truth. I'm going to live with it forever. Trying to pretend I don't have it will just hurt me, actually.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:But also like, some folks more than others, I know some people legit are - are of the mind of, like, I mean, it's just nobody else's business. I don't want to express this in public, because I just don't think it's for other people.
Harvey:Like, this is just mine, and mine alone. And that's fine.
Pen:That's okay. And there are some people who are like, I want to keep it kind of on the down-low, just because I don't want people to bring attention to it, and I definitely have some stuff like that. Like, yeah, I would be open about this, except that it's going to be a whole thing, and I'm kind of just trying to live my life.
Harvey:Like, for example, I don't really advertise the fact that I have PTSD.
Pen:Like, sometimes, you just don't want people in your brain, please.
Harvey:Yeah. And it also depends on the person. Like, people that I meet at the store? They don't need to know that I'm autistic.
Pen:No. And like, maybe you just don't want to deal with some of the symptoms, too. Like, I will mask some of my sensory processing issues, in part because I don't want to give them more attention and make them worse, because if I'm at work, I can't just turn off the lights.
Harvey:It can get a little feedback loopy if you focus on how you're feeling.
Pen:Yeah, sometimes you just do it, straight up, to cope with, like, this is a situation that's fully outside of my control.
Harvey:And so sometimes you play solitaire instead.
Pen:Yeah, like, sometimes you just make yourself less miserable in the ways that you can. And there's a difference between, like, doing that because it's like, well, best of a bad situation, or doing it because you feel ashamed, or like there's something wrong with you.
Harvey:And the other thing that I'd like to add to that, too, is like, if you're not ready to take the mask off, that's fine, too.
Pen:It's your choice. We... we make these things ourselves. You have crafted your own mask, and it can change.
Harvey:Oh, yeah.
Pen:And...
Harvey:Mine has.
Pen:And it's different in certain situations, and that's all okay. This is you. You get to choose what you're putting out there. Like, when you decide to do these things. Some of them are impossible to hide. That's not a failure. This is just you. This is your brain. But it is up to you. If you never want to stop masking in public, you don't have to. Like, Harvey and I are out here to be advocates for neurodivergence. Not everybody wants to, though.
Harvey:Yeah. And it also depends on the context. Like in in this context, and in academic contexts, I love to be an advocate for neurodivergence. In the Aldi, not so much.
Pen:Yeah. Like, I like being upfront about my ADHD. There's also a lot of people who don't want folks to know. There is - that's fine!
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:There is no judgment between us. It's all good.
Harvey:The only thing I hope for everyone is that you can... like, I had to work toward that you can let go of some of that judgment that - that society unfortunately instills upon you.
Pen:I... the great hope here is, whatever you choose to do, that you are choosing to do it out of... out of care, and out of love for yourself, and that you're not doing it just because somebody told you to and made you feel bad.
Harvey:Yeah.
Pen:But hey, if you're still working through that, like, I wasn't gonna stop masking when I was horrifically depressed. That wouldn't necessarily have made things go better. It can be complicated.
Harvey:And if nothing else, know that you're seen.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:There's one last thought I'd like to share before we, um... before we wrap up.
Pen:Please tell me.
Harvey:It's a very quick one. Autism Awareness Month is this month. And in some ways, I actually want to resist that notion. In that I think promoting autism acceptance is a much nicer way to do it. People are aware of me already. And unfortunately, the narrative that they get about autistic people is skewed, because Autism Speaks and autism moms on Facebook have a chokehold on the narrative still. So for this Autism Acceptance Month, get used to people who aren't masking, and understand that visible difference is not a bad thing, and that you don't know until someone tells you.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:Really critically examine the ways in which you evaluate neurodivergence, mental health, so on and so forth. Even I need to continue to do that.
Pen:Yeah, same here. And when you say this month, you mean April, yes?
Harvey:Yes.
Pen:Because this will be going up, um, maybe near end of April?
Harvey:Yes. April is Autism Awareness Month, but...
Pen:May is a mental health thing, too.
Harvey:I think, but I don't know what it is off the top of my head.
Pen:It's something green, because my mom has extra green handkerchiefs and stuff from a thing and she wanted to know if anybody wanted some.
Harvey:I'm just gonna say...
Pen:...mental health.
Harvey:Just gonna say, F Light it up Blue. Red Instead all the way.
Pen:Yeah!
Harvey:Autism Speaks is a terrible organization. Don't support them. Don't donate to them. Thank you.
Pen:Uh-huh! Oh, yeah, May is just straight up Mental Health Awareness Month.
Harvey:Sweet.
Pen:And I guess it's a green ribbon, so that's cool.
Harvey:Kind of a homophobic color that they picked in the sense that I - in the sense that I'm colorblind.
Pen:Harvey is - Lemony Snicket voice: Here, homophobic means Harvey is blue-green colorblind, so they are joking.
Harvey:Yes.
Pen:There's not actually social implications of the color green.
Harvey:Not remotely. I just call everything that's inconvenient to me homophobic.
Pen:Yeah, because it's funny.
Harvey:Anyway.
Pen:See, I like green. I take it you do not want one of the extra, like, scarf-bandana things.
Harvey:Honestly, I'd probably take one.
Pen:Okay, cool.
Harvey:So, stick around for just a few more moments, and we'll tell you a little bit more about how this podcast is run.
Pen:Yeah.
Harvey:Yeah. [Air kissing noises] Beyond Introspection is an independently-run podcast by Pen Novus and Harvey LaFord. Music by Girl Lloyd. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at ByndPodcast, or you can email us at beyonddot - that's D-O-T - podcast@gmail.com. We publish on Buzzsprout, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the links to our social media and email in the podcast description. Got feedback for us? Feel free to reach out on social media, or via email. We'd love to hear from everyone. Take care of yourselves.